Breeding techniques

Broseidon said:
True that.

Back then we were deciding between C99 from Bros Grimm (had just been out for a year or two) and AK47 F2 from Nirvana. Went with Nirvana due to budget.

Now that I am "back" and AK47 seems dead, I went with the C99 from peakseeds as many of you might already know from Broseidon's corner.

The idea was exactly what deran said: Basically a "fruitier" replacement for the AK47 in my stable.

However, so far, with only 2 ladies flowered out, the C99 was not it, yet.
Have lots more beans to go through with that strain but so far the 2 I harvested did not convince me. Taste and smell is not fruity and the effect is kind of lackluster.
Still waiting on what the cure will bring out from the ladies but doesnt look too promising atm.


It could well be nostalgia but from what I remember, the AK47 was just more potent. Could have been the particular pheno as well though.

But from the effect, I would agree. The C99 and other sativa leaning hybrids do provide a similar experience. Just not as potent, to me, so far.
Could well be I find a C99 pheno in the future that does perfectly replace the AK though. Haven't given up yet ;)
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being the smart ass that i am: hey bro! : its ak48 , when talking nirvana ;)
 
deran said:
being the smart ass that i am: hey bro! : its ak48 , when talking nirvana ;)
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Being the old fart that I am:
It used to be AK47 from Nirvana as well. I purchased Nirvana AK47, not AK48, back in the day.

Serious Seeds then somehow managed to force Nirvana to respect their "brand" or "trademark", I don't know if they were maybe paid off or something or how they managed it.
But at that point in time, Serious had already lost their AK47 parent(s) and the Nirvana AK47 was regarded as superior by many, even if it was just a blatant F2 ripoff by Nirvana. It was still based on the original parents, unlike Serious' "original" which by then replaced one parent with a "The Chronic" specimen which ultimately ruined the strain.

Either way, at that point in time Serious somehow managed to make Nirvana remove their AK47 from the store and replace it with the AK48 which is a completely different strain and has nothing to do with Serious' original AK47.
Ironically, neither did the AK47 Serious was selling from that point in time onwards.

How I wish I had purchased another pack from Nirvana before that all went down...

Oh well.
 
Broseidon said:
Being the old fart that I am:
It used to be AK47 from Nirvana as well. I purchased Nirvana AK47, not AK48, back in the day.

Serious Seeds then somehow managed to force Nirvana to respect their "brand" or "trademark", I don't know if they were maybe paid off or something or how they managed it.
But at that point in time, Serious had already lost their AK47 parent(s) and the Nirvana AK47 was regarded as superior by many, even if it was just a blatant F2 ripoff by Nirvana. It was still based on the original parents, unlike Serious' "original" which by then replaced one parent with a "The Chronic" specimen which ultimately ruined the strain.

Either way, at that point in time Serious somehow managed to make Nirvana remove their AK47 from the store and replace it with the AK48 which is a completely different strain and has nothing to do with Serious' original AK47.
Ironically, neither did the AK47 Serious was selling from that point in time onwards.

How I wish I had purchased another pack from Nirvana before that all went down...

Oh well.
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oh, did i mention that ak47 and ak48 are totally different strains (their makeup)?

;)
 
Nope, but I did :D

But it is a really interesting story.

If Serious hadn't forced Nirvana to remove their AK47 F2 from their shop, we might still have the "original" AK47 to this day.

I really can't get over it how a "copycat" company like Nirvana managed to preserve its strains better than household names like Sensi and Serious.

Back then, everyone and their mother was pooping on Nirvana, calling them hacks, thieves, copycats etc. etc.

And today the boards are full with rage and criticism against banks like Sensi and Serious while Nirvana is basically called an heirloom seedbank.

Just so ironic that whole ordeal, never more clear than with the AK47.

What is the AK48 now actually, I forgot...
Was basically a Haze and Northern Lights cross or something like that I believe. Apparently solid but nothing to write home about.

And to think that I could be in posession of "original" Nirvana F2 AK47 seeds but instead opted for a pack of pure power plant back in the days. We only grew the NL and the AK47 and I still have the pure power plant pack from late 90's. If I had taken a 2nd pack of AK47 I would be sitting on gold right now ...

Not even sure if I should still grow the PPP anymore. So many strains that sound more interesting from MRN, Peak and Ace.... Maybe some day.
 
bc neither sensi nor serious are doing their breeding, they have "ppl" that do that for them, they just market it by taking over the fictive "copyright"

ak48 is jock horror X ice , jock horror not to be messed up with herrer, also another pedigree

and you dont know if the 1st called 47 from nirvana wasnt a jock horror X ice cross or a serious seeds ak47 F2
 
Was reading till pg 35, but some came up to say to Nev about saving the genepool.
Saving the genepool can only be done by supporting the local farmers where the varieties are coming from.Introduction of western genetics in those areas would harm more the genepool then say to a breeder that it is duty to save the genepool.
A landrace variety will change when it is grown for several generations in another environment and adapt than where it is coming from.
 
Hi,
I dindt knew where to post this, as I dont want to made another thread..

I just simply want to wright truth about my grow.
So , i got Widow from D.passion at 2005 and made my own pollination of pair.
Is this what is called IBL ?

Something tells me yes, beacause in the offspring, relatively all of the plants are looking the same. As seen in my thread WW to x with BW


Also: i got my own readings. So, please, feel free to correct me.

GENOTYPE - set of genes of a plant
PHENOTYPE - set of characteristics of a plant
ALLELES - other gene characteristics, that dont appear in phenotype
HETEROZYGOT - 2 distinctive alleles (both can be seen in offspring)
HOMOZYGOT - 2 same alleles (same representation in offspring)

SELFING - feminization breeding, +50% homozygotation, loss of vigour
BX - breeding strain back to parents
LINE BREEDING - crossing one strain together, always finding the one i wanted / selfing one strain for many generations
TRUE F1 - breeding together 2IBLs
F1 - breeding two random strains
F2-Fx - breeding siblings of the same batch of previous Fx

So if I want to make my own strain, I am best of makig my own 2 IBLs and then cross them together to make TRUE F1 and thats it simple-short?
___________
Thanks and I promise I will buy some book, at some time :D
??? -
 
kinda yes and yes.
ibl may be considered a few more generations than just the f2's you made, but its a step towards it.
and line breeding is breeding two hybrids with a common ancestor, to increase the shift of genes toward that line.
 
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P3Ci said:
TRUE F1 - breeding together 2IBLs
F1 - breeding two random strains
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There isn't a 'True F1' and an 'F1'. There is only 'F1', and it is breeding together two completely unrelated IBLs.

Breeding together two random strains is generally a polyhybrid.
 
Ok, so I have it more clearer now.

My 2nd question is about stabilazing hybrid, as for example I always wanted to make my own purple widow, for this I will try maybe my WW x (ace)PCK.

I have just one growtent, and cannot aford to get a hold of mother plants.


So my question is about Backcrossing using just male and same pollen in all of the next generation crosses?

As example my figure as how I want to do it:

WW-f x PCK-m => F1
F1-f x PCK-m => F2
F2-f x PCK-m => F3 (maybe stable)
F3-f x PCK-m => F4 (hopefully stable)

...... continues till point of my satisfaction, in each generation I will try to choose the best female plant overall, if F1 is not good at all, id prefer the male was bad for cross and try another time from the start

(hopefully the pollen will last 1year long in fridge in multiple vials, with some dehumidifier things)

Thanks for help, if this is the bad work i want to do, I know about only one thing i could do, and that is selfing :( but i dont want to do feminized seeds, i Just play with plants, but with respect, so I like fems and males too.



OR
Or I can do that in summer, mother plant in the garden, cuting to indoor, make F1, F2 backross to another cuting from mother, F3 backcross to father and F4 would be the end...

OR OR
Once female does seeds, reveging? Or clone from flowered plant?

Any advice is welcome here, cause I just wanna do it one or other way, no debate, just want to kick in my ass, so I can do better in things I want to do

I know, lots of questions, please forgive my passion ;)
 
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what are your goals for the hybrid, what traits do you like from both parents?
it may be better to keep breeding it ibl in fillial generations than backcross to either of the parents, unless that is what you would prefer.
by backcrossing to either parent, you are going to increase the amount of genes from that individual parent substantially. that could be a good thing, or not what you want to do.

your cross from widow to pck the first time would be f1.
but f1 female x pck male would not be f2, it would be bx1, first generation backcross.
but my advice would be to do it all the ways you can, and then you can go through them later and see the difference for yourself.
make f1-f4 of the hybrid, but also make the backcrosses.
if there is one strain that you like better, and you just want a little of the other one added in, then the backcrosses to that preferred parent would be a good way to go.
 
Thanks for reply.

Basicaly, I start of, with what parents are like.

Widow of mine is inbred from 2005 of DP Widow (actually making F3 from it)
plant is homogenous for theese traits
cons: overbranching, leafs in buds, small leafs overall
pros: really stable flavour between plant to plant, indica to christmass tree structure
overal: 1pheno, i just got so lucky in first inbred cross that the flavour is good, but everything else got scaled down, but that flavour is top

PCK is writen to be Landrace purple kush
pros here: the color
overal: i thought it is best toi breed with IBL / Landrace or so.. (most stable plants)

I know it sound silly, but I want just that color, maybe cancel the cons on Widow side too, but thats extra i just want to give flavour to pck, or color to widow, something in between or so.


So actually you meant for me to do folowing?
Make F1 cross of theese so WW x PCK
Then sibling mating to F2
-II- F3
-II- F4
-and make backcross to male from each of those siblings matings ? and then see what done where?

I get it right?
And thanks for help man, hope i can help you at some time

Sorry for my english, not the best but i try
 
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yes, at each stage of making fx generation seeds, you will be selecting a mother and father, that are siblings. so as long as you throw an extra plant of the mother or father into each round, you will be able to use your new generation male and female to cross back to both parents, as well as the sibling mating.
then you will have backcrosses at each stage of the fx generational breeding.

which point will be the best to start the backcrossing? you will have already made the seeds so if you see an issue pop up in the f4s, you can either retry a new f4 generation with new f3 parents, or consider the ibl a dead end past there and start looking into f3bx1 from either the male or female sides.
you might get just what youre looking for in your regular hybrids so might not be any purpose of the backcrossing to the parents.
 
Yes, I get it.
Atleast on some form, I can now think of what the purpose of Bx is and what are other meanings of genetics and hybrid as itself.

In picture i see hybrid as a baloon full of genes of two plants.
Those are recombining in each Filial cross. Backcross can double on the mother(dad) side of things.
So in Bx the balloon full of genes will probably double on the mom(dad) genes and those will show up more in offspring. (nevermind the recessives at this time, cause I think thats where it cannot really be explained to me right now.
Now I even see how 1000 plants is better then my few and where the numbers game is.

I really think I get the good grab on it, thanks to this forum and people like you. Now especially you, because the flame on candle is burning now. ;)

Hope you have a nice day, or wish you so.
 
beta said:
There isn't a 'True F1' and an 'F1'. There is only 'F1', and it is breeding together two completely unrelated IBLs.

Breeding together two random strains is generally a polyhybrid.
Click to expand...

jack hairy said:
yes, but shanti calls two related ibls that are brought back together after a few generations an f1
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This is confusing...:confused:

Are you implying that Shanti is the only breeder to call that an F1???:eek:
 
im not sure if others do or not.

i would not call them f1 hybrids.
even though they are several generations removed from the point that siblings diverged into separate lines, they are still related, and therefore do not meet the definition of F1 hybrid.
 
jack hairy said:
im not sure if others do or not.

i would not call them f1 hybrids.
even though they are several generations removed from the point that siblings diverged into separate lines, they are still related, and therefore do not meet the definition of F1 hybrid.
Click to expand...

Thank you Jack for answering.

I don’t want to sound unpleasant but who are you to postulate such a thing.

I am tired of reading posts that seem to imply that MNS strains are not F1s.
For how long has this been going on?
8 years?

Aren’t you able to recognize an F1 when you grow one?

if they are not F1s, how do you call MNS strains more exactly?

You must certainly have an idea?
Or maybe Elmer has one?
Or the members from your secret super forum...lol
 
Back crossing to the parents as in the Black Widow is not called an F1 anywhere else but Mr nice .

So before you go all lynch mob on Jack better check your facts ...
 
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