Shanti & Nev will you work with the blue lines?

DJ has documented all his breeding but I've got my doubts about some of his work. The Blueberry from the 90s and the Blueberry of today are not the same at all, I don't care what anyone says, they aren't the same, the old one was awesome, big yielder, it had everything, I fail to see the similarities between the 90s Blueberry I had and the recent DJ work, that is why I have my doubts. I'm also wondering what the Afghani was like that went into DJ's work. I suspect it was similar to Bubba Kush as there are phenos in a few of DJ's lines that remined me strongly of Bubba. Bubba is said by some to be an old Afghan from Oregon and DJ hails from Oregon, so maybe Bubba is at the heart of DJ's work? I know I've seen Grape Krush and Cocoa Kush phenos that were very reminiscent of Bubba.

On the Bubblegum thing, it's supposed to be an old strain created by a guy called Silverback in the early 70s. I've not grown the Indiana cutting and it seems from pics online there are more than one being passed round, some look like an Afghan, some are clearly hybrids. I suspected for a while that Bubblegum was an old Afghani like Bubba Kush is an old Afghani, but what Nevil says about Big Bud having a bubblegum smell makes me wonder just what Bubblegum is and if it's a Big Bud hybrid.

Flo is almost certainly an Oregon Purple Thai hybrid as it has all the retarded mutant freakiness present from OPT, you can see the same freakiness traits in Purpurea Ticinensis which is probably an OPT hybrid from Breeder Steve's time in Switzerland.

I'm very interested in Bubblegum as a strain as it yields immense in the right pheno and has a beautiful flavour, but finding a potent one is not so easy, most Bubblegums are not very potent, you need to do some pheno hunting. I'm also interested in Big Bud if it has a bubblegum smell, the only versions of Bug Bud I've grown have all been modern skunk hybrids of it and were typically dutch skunk, not bubblegum like at all, I'm guessing they all leaned more to the skunk side of things rather than the original Big Bud cutting.

One offshoot of Bubblegum that everyone raves about and I'm going to run some clones of in a few weeks is Sourbubble. BOG says it stems from a rare pheno he isolated from his work but it's almost definitely a Bubba Kush hybrid to one of BOG's bubblegum variants. I'm gonna run some Sourbubbles alongside some Bubba S1s, I gave seeds of both to a friend and now he has cuts ready for me.

Nev, do you know if Soma used the BBSK seeds you gave him? Story I keep hearing on Soma is he turned up in Amsterdam in 1995 with 12 or 13 skunk cuttings from Oregon and crossed those cuttings to a male Afghan-Hawaiian Shanti gave him and that's where all his original strains originate. In the back of his book he listed the strains he brought as cuttings, I forget what they were now but they were all skunks like Big Skunk Korean and Super Skunk. The only other male he's worked with was the G13-Haze he germed from some old seeds, he really does owe a lot to Nev and Shanti, all his breeding work is half their genes at least, I don't consider Soma a proper breeder because all he has ever done is use those two males, hardly what I'd call a selection program.
 
british_hempire said:
Flo is almost certainly an Oregon Purple Thai hybrid as it has all the retarded mutant freakiness present from OPT, you can see the same freakiness traits in Purpurea Ticinensis which is probably an OPT hybrid from Breeder Steve's time in Switzerland.
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Hi b_h,

I can assure you that Felix PT has nothing in common with OPT.
Felix got it well before Steve was in Switzerland.

Peace.

K.
 
I know Felix said he found PT growing as an ornamental in an old lady's garden, but I've never believed that story. I've grown out two versions of PT - one direct from Owl's, one worked a bit by esbe and they are clearly OPT hybrids, especially in the Owl's version, all the OPT traits were there. Breeder Steve was neighbours with Felix so they definitely had the opportunity to work together. I reckon Felix crossed OPT to one of his Afghans to create PT. Ticino must have been a wonderful place in those days - Felix, Shanti, Steve and others, I bet the Alpine air smelled lovely!

Reading between the lines of what Soma wrote in his book, I think all his first generation of strains were crosses using the Afghan-Hawaiian male, he basically pollinated his clone collection with Shanti's male. Originally they were called Soma 1, 2, 3, 4, 5 etc later he gave em names instead like Rock Bud and Amethyst Bud. Later on he did the same thing with the G13Haze male - he just let it pollinate his mother collection.

Shanti wrote this last year: 'In the late 90s I gave plants to Soma, and he began a seed company a year later too…mixing his skunks to my males. This has occurred many times to me just look at the Spanish seed companies and 10 years ago…none existed until I went there in 1995 and gave away 3 kilos of seed to growers via Canamo magazine….but that is another story too.'
 
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b_h,

I was there.
Steve never had a plant or seeds named OPT.
In fact to my knowledge the first person who appeared on the scene with this OPTcutting is Reeferman.
Maybe it is OPT which came from PT.
Who knows...

Peace.

K.
 
Reeferman is the only one to have sold OPT seeds but it was a common strain in the PNW and Canada, Texada Timewarp is another hybrid of it for outdoors.

Steve might not have had OPT but he had and worked with all kinds of OPT hybrids when he grew out the Blue stuff he worked with in the joint projects with DJ. Maybe it's a OPT don Flo that went into PT?

I dunno but having grown OPT, Flo, PT and others they would seem to be related, the traits are quite distinct and visible in all of them.
 
Anyway I hope OPT is not related to PT as for me PT is swiss hemp...
On the other side it is a nice ornemental plant.

Peace.

K.
 
Azra'eil said:
can we trust mens like breeder steve or reeferman ? im not sure...just a feeling
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Well Az,

It is not Steve that I am asking you to believe but me.
The last time I was with Felix was the day after Steve was busted.
I was in his high altitude garden. He was cutting all his plants in a hurry fearing to be the next on the list.
I haven't seen him again since then.

british_hempire said:
Maybe it's a OPT don Flo that went into PT?
Click to expand...

One more time PT existed in Switzerland well before Steve even arrives there.

Peace.

K.
 
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PT needs a lot of selection but there are some stellar plants in there, the best ones are similar to the indica phenos of Flo. Are you sure PT was around before Steve arrived? It's really stretching coincidences that PT can have so many OPT traits but not be related imho.

Never knew Heaven was a BB/AK hybrid, I thought it was an Afghan, think that was what Felix said it was I think, it was damn strong though, smoked a sample bud in 2004 Felix brought with him to the HTCC.
 
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I am sure that it was there before Steve.
I had friends growing it circa 1996.

Like I said and after reading your observaztions on those two strains I would not be surprised to learn that OPT in fact comes from PT as Legends and Terracava were selling Owl's Prod. seeds to the US from 1999/2000.

Hope this helps.

Peace.

K.
 
Chimera said:
Originally Posted by Nevil
The original Bubblegum was pretty good, I thought it was BB.SKxNL5.SK. Isn't the Blueberry descended from that?
N.
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>>> Blueberry is not derived from Bubblegum.

Perhaps your confused since one of the first available dutchified blueberry hybrids was a Blueberry X Bubblegum from Sagarmatha?

Check the genomics if you have any doubt... DNA doesn't have an agenda to push, and tells all.

-Chimera
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DNA may not have an agenda to push, but you sure do. Luckily however, this is not Icmag and all opinions can be expressed. Not just those which conveniently mirror the company line.

Nowhere do you mention a DNA test on both the blueberry which is responsible for the legend, and the blueberry of today (both of them lol). But let me guess, now that I point out any test on a single line represented as blueberry means nothing when there are several versions you will claim to they are all the same? Or that you indeed tested them all? lol.

The blueberries of today from DJ Short are definitely not the blueberry which the legend was built off of. The public hears how great blueberry is, the original from the '90s and automatically assumes that they can acquire the line in question by just going to DJ's link at Doc Chronics, Gypsys etc. However thats simply not the case. And anyone claiming to have did DNA testing on blueberry and presenting this as "proof" of blueberries originality without also elaborating on possible flaws in their findings should definitely be looked at closely. For those who present themselves as "scientist" you sure do leave enough holes in your game to drive a yugo through!

So the short end of the stick is simply this, the blueberry legend is built off the widely available blueberry from the '90s here in the U.S which was quite common at the time. It was definitely good weed, not a world beater, but nice without question. Todays versions, by those who claim to be the originator of the line are not the same Blueberry which a majority of you will have no doubt have heard of from one person or another.

DJ Short claims to have bred the line, whether or not this is true is a matter of opinion. Not fact. However if Nevil recognizes something in blueberry as one of his own, which he would no doubt be drawing off of 1st hand experience from the '90s version then I would have no need to question him. Having experienced the original myself, I would say there is a great chance Blueberry is in fact derived from lines which Nev sold at the seed bank in one form or another. What passes for blueberry today is just not the original, but the originals popularity is clearly driving sales to this day. As there is indeed some misrepresentation of the truth with this line on DJ's behalf.

What was commercially available in the '90s was likely acquired from those who first worked with the line in Holland and sold seeds to those clandestine growers in the U.S. DJ Short did not even have a seed bank of his own for many years, prior to that others infact did the breeding work from lines derived from what DJ had brought from the U.S to Holland. So the commmercially available legend line of the '90s could have a few possible points of origin. Sagarmatha, Dutch Passion, Nirvana and perhaps even White Label chiefly. As I grew the Nirvana blueberry, which was the first forum hyped line to drive seed sales, around 2002 and it was nearly identicle to the commercially available blueberry of the '90s.

Do your research before you spend any money people!
 
kashrocks said:
I am sure that it was there before Steve.
I had friends growing it circa 1996.

Like I said and after reading your observaztions on those two strains I would not be surprised to learn that OPT in fact comes from PT as Legends and Terracava were selling Owl's Prod. seeds to the US from 1999/2000.

Hope this helps.

Peace.

K.
Click to expand...

The OPT is supposed to be old, from the 70s I think. Texada Timewarp, a hybrid of it is said to have been a staple of the outdoor BC scene for decades.

I just found it very strange that the PT had all the distinctive OPT mutations, I really don't know what's the facts, just saying I found similar mutant traits in Flo, OPT and PT.
 
I don't agree with Jesse, Blueberry from Dutch Passion in 1996, Sagarmatha in 1997, Delta-9 in 1998, I've grown all of those, they were all the same strain, just variants of it, the Delta-9 one came straight from DJ and was the best of the 3 versions by far. The OPT parent of Blueberry has very distinct traits that include several types of mutation, these traits were present in all three of these variants in differing levels of frequence, the Dutch Passion version produced mostly mutants that lacked vigour and were very tricky to keep healthy, the Delta-9 version had much more vigour, only a couple of mutant plants and were much less tricky to grow, but you could clearly see it was the same strain, just different selections of it.

Before DJ gave seeds to Dutch Passion in 1996, no-one sold Blueberry seeds, DJ is the originator of Blueberry, that's certain, what isn't certain is the precise lineages of the different Blueberries that have been sold since then, the original Blueberry that DJ sold in the late 90s via Delta-9 was rather different to the Blueberry he's been selling in recent years, you can tell they are related, but the differences are clear, the modern one is much more colourful and varied. Personally, I think the late 90s version leaned more towards the Oaxacan parent and the modern version leans more to the Thai and Afghan parents.

I just don't think there was any Blueberry prior to DJ in 1996, you'll not find a catalogue that has Blueberry seeds prior to when it first appeared in Dutch Passion's and they got 50 seeds from DJ, ripped him off and hacked their own version from plants grown out of those 50 seeds.

In the UK, there was and still is a fake Blueberry cut doing the rounds, it's almost certainly a NL5 hybrid, it's very berry tasting, not at all like the sweet floral complex palette of DJ's Blueberry, it might be an NL dom NLxBig Bud, but no-one is sure.

If anyone can find any reference to a Blueberry earlier than DJ Short and the Dutch Passion release I'll be extremely surprised, no-one has ever shown a Blueberry cutting any older than the late 90s apart from the one DJ gave to the med clubs.

Some info from Baudelaire (he who wrote the Strainguide):

Blueberry from Dutch Passion or Legends Seeds is the most authentic version, as these are the official outlets of the breeder D.J. Short (originally of Oregon, USA, btw). Sagarmatha's version uses one of the original parent clones but the other parent is a Sag clone. Sag and DJ had a falling out a year after he introduced Blueberry and refused to restock Sag, so Tony (Sag's proprietor) produced his own line.

The lineage of the strain is all in StrainBase (see top of this forum). Suffice to say it is a heavily worked in-bred strain (IBL) combining two Thai sativas, one highland and one lowland, and a Kush indica. It is predominately indica in phenotype.

Being an IBL, Blueberry tends to be a finicky, medium yielding, slow growing plant with little robustness. Individuals with deformed leaves are common, as are stunted runts. All and all, true blueberry is probably best resigned to the breeder's kit.

Blueberry hybrids are, on the other hand, terrific. Blueberry has high combining abilities, that is, it passes on its best traits easily and with consistency when outcrossed. In addition, hybrid vigor is restored when outcrossed, eliminating most of blueberry's vigor issues.

I'm working with a Blueberry hybrid from California called Blue Widow. Originally bred by NCGA, this combines the original DJ Short release of Blueberry in 1998 with the classic '98 Aloha release of White Widow. Early results are very impressive. Test smokes seem to confirm that the great Blueberry taste has come through, replacing the acrid taste of the WW. Yet the massive trichome formation that the WW is legendary for remains.

Blue Widow is not available anywhere (yet smile.gif ). But there are many other Blue hybrids that get good marks, and all are generally less expensive than pure Blueberry. Spice of Life's Sweetooth has a famous Blueberry male in it's background. So does his Blue Satellite. Both of these strains are available from the uk420 store.

Nirvana's Blueberry strain is cheap and has received pretty good reviews from home growers. I haven't tried it myself but my guess is, like virtually all of Mau's seedlines, the Nirvana Blueberry isn't true Blueberry but rather a well-selected Blueberry clone crossed with one of Mau's regular Skunk or Masterkush studs. You won't hear me praise a Nirvana strain very often but the Nirvana BB is probably one of the best deals out there in a good-value Blueberry hybrid.
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Retrospectivly the best Blueberry I have tried was the Sagarmatha version from 1998:it really had a blueberry smell and taste and was mostly free from those deformations.The plants were very uniforms.
The first time I met Steve in Lugano I had brought him a big piece of Sag. Blueberry bubblehash. He couldn't not believed I was already growing Blueberry in Europe.He told me that it was the best piece of hash someone brought to him in a long time. We also smoked some pure THC oil that a swiss guy which owned a growshop on the shore of lake Lugano has made. It had no taste nor smell and I found it not to be a pleasing experience. The less pure product the guy also made was much better. I remember that at the 2002 Cannatrade Steve arrived like a rockstar at the expo with a flask of the pure product. He was giving away buds of SPG which contained SwT#3 seeds. The crowd was happy. This Cannatrade was the best cannabis expo I have ever been and I have done a lot. Everybody was there...

Good night.

Peace.

K.
 
i am not sure what to think of you after some of the things you have posted recently.
Nevil said:
Will I work with the blue lines?

I'm a pedigree buff. This becomes real important when line breeding or inbreeding. Doubling up on certain ancestors or parts of a pedigree can radically alter the outcome. It's a means of pushing probability in the direction you want. Unknowingly doubling up on certain ancestors may give you unexpected and sometimes undesirable results. like what? please inform the uninformed! I try to avoid this, breeding is hard enough as it is. your namesake line isa 75%haze even if you did use different males I tend to avoid the work of people who obfuscate im unclear what yer saying in this post hehe ancestries in order to make it seem like they were born clutching a handful of seeds that nobody else has, when in fact they mostly hybridised strains that I released. sir, you released hybridized strains you collected in north america Call it "orgasmic cascade" for all I care, you bred it you get to call it what you want, but the moment someone lies about the pedigree, mostly for purposes of self aggrandisement, I can't take them seriously any more. Or their work. agreedThe original Bubblegum was pretty good, I thought it was BB.SKxNL5.SK. Isn't the Blueberry descended from that? Who knows with fantasy pedigrees, but I'd take it to Critical Mass, which also contained the BB.SK, which is where the bubblegum flavours came from. If you create something great, good luck trying to work out what made it click. wtf are you talking about here?N.
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british_hempire said:
I don't agree with Jesse, Blueberry from Dutch Passion in 1996, Sagarmatha in 1997, Delta-9 in 1998, I've grown all of those, they were all the same strain, just variants of it, the Delta-9 one came straight from DJ and was the best of the 3 versions by far.
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Hi British Hempire,
Thats funny, because when I read your earlier post (and Ive seen you post this same info previously as well) it reminded me quite a bit of my own postings long before you "developed" this idea of yours lol.

Example 1a
british_hempire said:
DJ has documented all his breeding but I've got my doubts about some of his work. The Blueberry from the 90s and the Blueberry of today are not the same at all, I don't care what anyone says, they aren't the same, the old one was awesome, big yielder, it had everything, I fail to see the similarities between the 90s Blueberry I had and the recent DJ work, that is why I have my doubts. I'm also wondering what the Afghani was like that went into DJ's work. I suspect it was similar to Bubba Kush as there are phenos in a few of DJ's lines that remined me strongly of Bubba. Bubba is said by some to be an old Afghan from Oregon and DJ hails from Oregon, so maybe Bubba is at the heart of DJ's work? I know I've seen Grape Krush and Cocoa Kush phenos that were very reminiscent of Bubba.

On the Bubblegum thing, it's supposed to be an old strain created by a guy called Silverback in the early 70s. I've not grown the Indiana cutting and it seems from pics online there are more than one being passed round, some look like an Afghan, some are clearly hybrids. I suspected for a while that Bubblegum was an old Afghani like Bubba Kush is an old Afghani, but what Nevil says about Big Bud having a bubblegum smell makes me wonder just what Bubblegum is and if it's a Big Bud hybrid.
Click to expand...

Example 1b
My post from Jaybutta's "DJ Shorts Class" page 2 (Notice the dates)
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/55510-post19.html

Example 1c
Page 3
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/55563-post26.html

And I could probably throw a few more examples up as well...

Its funny how you accuse me of stealing your work, but when I proved that theory wrong you deleted your posts here at MNS and left the forum. Only to weasel your way back, after not being accepted anywhere else and yourself start to take credit for things you read months ago. Now apparently you want to nickle and dime your way around this forum by attempting to play devils advocate to anything I post (do I need to post up the recent Cheese thread posts to prove my point?) in an effort to look relevent and or important lol.

Example 1d
http://www.mrnice.nl/forum/78358-post233.html

Only in this case, and perhaps the most ironic part of all, you've assimilated my posts as your own and then have the balls to troll me and say you dont agree lol.

Here is an idea, start a grow log perhaps? ;) Merry Xmas.
 
DINOSAURDAN said:
i am not sure what to think of you after some of the things you have posted recently.
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It simple really. I work for the guy who pays me and I do the best job that I know how to do.

I'm a pedigree buff. This becomes real important when line breeding or inbreeding. Doubling up on certain ancestors or parts of a pedigree can radically alter the outcome. It's a means of pushing probability in the direction you want. Unknowingly doubling up on certain ancestors may give you unexpected and sometimes undesirable results. like what? please inform the uninformed! I try to avoid this, breeding is hard enough as it is. your namesake line isa 75%haze even if you did use different males I tend to avoid the work of people who obfuscate im unclear what yer saying in this post hehe ancestries in order to make it seem like they were born clutching a handful of seeds that nobody else has, when in fact they mostly hybridised strains that I released. sir, you released hybridized strains you collected in north america Call it "orgasmic cascade" for all I care, you bred it you get to call it what you want, but the moment someone lies about the pedigree, mostly for purposes of self aggrandisement, I can't take them seriously any more. Or their work. agreedThe original Bubblegum was pretty good, I thought it was BB.SKxNL5.SK. Isn't the Blueberry descended from that? Who knows with fantasy pedigrees, but I'd take it to Critical Mass, which also contained the BB.SK, which is where the bubblegum flavours came from. If you create something great, good luck trying to work out what made it click. wtf are you talking about here?N.
like what? please inform the uninformed! I
Click to expand...
If you unintentionally inbreed to an undesirable plant (say Afghani#1) you will skew the results in favour of the inbred plant.
sir, you released hybridized strains you collected in north america
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Like every one else I used lines I got from someone else, but I never deliberately lied about the ancestry, which is my complaint.
 
Jesse always has to take everything personally and go off on a mad tangent doesn't he.

Fact remains, I don't think there was any Blueberry around before DJ sold his seeds.

DJ has documented his work more than any other breeder, I do believe he created blueberry from two Thais and an Afghan, however I also question why there are such differences between the old Blueberry and what's come since from DJ.

If DJ were here to present his case I'm fairly sure he could answer these mysteries.

This is what I considered to be a really good blueberry, this is from F3 seeds I made descended from the first Delta-9 release in the late 90s.

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I think that particular plant was structurally Oaxacan leaning, the taste and smell were sweet and floral, very complex, very strong smell to rival the UK Cheese in stench but not an obvious weed smell, regardless of their other qualities, DJ's plants always have complex and interesting smells and tastes, they can be bitches to grow but the quality of the end product is always there.
 
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