Do you even need a male anymore?

megnu

New member
I never realized people were breeding out the fem seeds. We tried it in the 2000's and every time the resulting seeds came up with lots of deformities and herms. So we've been telling people for years "DO NOT BREED WITH FEM SEED!". Although getting online now I see many others disagree with that. I read they used stress in the early days and now with chemicals to make the fem seed. Not sure if that's true or not but I would never breed with them again. Personally, the males always seem to grow the fastest and with the most vigor, very desirable traits.
 

shantibaba

Breeder and moderator
Hi All

Mr Nice Seedbank remains a regular seed company, CBD crew is both regulars and feminized and behind the scenes many rooms i run make specific seed for specific companies from orders. Nevil, myself and Dave Watson all experimented with all things but the unanimous agreement about keeping feminized seed out of breeding is something we all agreed about. Of course since those days there are companies just pumping out seed production with little respect for breeding properly or testing...more about new flavors and quantities than special trait breeding. However if you are interested in keeping genetic diversity healthy and alive then you use male and female selections. Maybe i am old school thinking but after the millions of seeds i have created and made over the last 30 + years i see good old seeds made with true male pollen and true females create incredibly vital and voracious growing offspring...we weeded out hermaphrodites from most gene pools over years of selective trait breeding, it does not make sense to put it back? The reality is if feminized seed is all you are after then you can produce it yourself on choice clones....why buy it? You may possibly do a better more thorough job than some of the offers available today!

Whichever way you tend to favor it is always good to keep things diverse and with a natural range...and try to replicate nature rather than monsanto.

All the best Sb
 
Yo, neat converstaion y'all. I recently got a book about breeding plants and excited to learn more so I can keep up with these conversations at a higher level. Shanti, did you happen to make the seed for Greenhouse's Super Lemon Haze CBD offering? Much love.
 

shantibaba

Breeder and moderator
We made a lot of CBD hybrids and really i cannot control who buys or resells them and in what name they end up as...but we never made or sold directly to GH this strain super lemon haze cbd. Hope that is clear all the best Sb
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Hi All

Mr Nice Seedbank remains a regular seed company, CBD crew is both regulars and feminized and behind the scenes many rooms i run make specific seed for specific companies from orders. Nevil, myself and Dave Watson all experimented with all things but the unanimous agreement about keeping feminized seed out of breeding is something we all agreed about. Of course since those days there are companies just pumping out seed production with little respect for breeding properly or testing...more about new flavors and quantities than special trait breeding. However if you are interested in keeping genetic diversity healthy and alive then you use male and female selections. Maybe i am old school thinking but after the millions of seeds i have created and made over the last 30 + years i see good old seeds made with true male pollen and true females create incredibly vital and voracious growing offspring...we weeded out hermaphrodites from most gene pools over years of selective trait breeding, it does not make sense to put it back? The reality is if feminized seed is all you are after then you can produce it yourself on choice clones....why buy it? You may possibly do a better more thorough job than some of the offers available today!

Whichever way you tend to favor it is always good to keep things diverse and with a natural range...and try to replicate nature rather than monsanto.

All the best Sb

If you are interested in maintaining genetic diversity?

What an excellent point.

If your breeding program is just about the next step, for sure put a cpl of nice femmes together, it's like shooting fish in a barrel.

If you want to bring what a strain, or two, have to offer forwards and presreve its capacity for future development, then breed appropriately.

I like how MNS breeding allows you to select variable pheno to suit the grower. A few so-so types to sort through, but that's the fun of gardening
 

Big Sur

Active member
I never realized people were breeding out the fem seeds. We tried it in the 2000's and every time the resulting seeds came up with lots of deformities and herms. So we've been telling people for years "DO NOT BREED WITH FEM SEED!". Although getting online now I see many others disagree with that. I read they used stress in the early days and now with chemicals to make the fem seed. Not sure if that's true or not but I would never breed with them again. Personally, the males always seem to grow the fastest and with the most vigor, very desirable traits.
I have seen that with almost all of my landrace grows. The males generally grow better and faster than the females. But that should only be due to hormones, as it is in humans, hormones are what really control the sexual phenotype and growth. Male humans are also on average larger than female humans. Only 6% of flowering plant species retain the dioecious (male and female sex) trait though. So it is far more rare in plants than in animals.

Breeding from feminized females in my experience results in fewer males and more females. Also more herms. Rob Clarke says in his old book Mj Botany that the ratio of females to males in the general population of Cannabis plants as far back as 1981 was already 60/40 F/M due to selecting grows for females to produce sinsemilla. He states that the ratio can go as high as 80/20 F/M in heavily female selected breeding stock.
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
I have seen that with almost all of my landrace grows. The males generally grow better and faster than the females. But that should only be due to hormones, as it is in humans, hormones are what really control the sexual phenotype and growth. Male humans are also on average larger than female humans. Only 6% of flowering plant species retain the dioecious (male and female sex) trait though. So it is far more rare in plants than in animals.

Breeding from feminized females in my experience results in fewer males and more females. Also more herms. Rob Clarke says in his old book Mj Botany that the ratio of females to males in the general population of Cannabis plants as far back as 1981 was already 60/40 F/M due to selecting grows for females to produce sinsemilla. He states that the ratio can go as high as 80/20 F/M in heavily female selected breeding stock.
Hey man.

It's a little simplistic to suggest male plants are taller like male animals, *because of hormones*.

Form follows function in nature

Male mammals normally have to fight to breed, so they pack testosterone.
Male spiders and many other animals are not larger than females at all, so your suggestion isn't really true.

The reason why male canna plants are taller than the female isn't because it's packing roids, or physically fighting it's opponents, it's maybe so the pollen can drop down onto the females near by.

If the male was shorter, it would only shed onto the bottom half of nearby femmes.
Canna pollen obviously will blow on the wind, but it likes to drop heavily.
That's why the male stretches so noticeably at maturity.

That's a take on it anyway.
 
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Big Sur

Active member
Hey man.

It's a little simplistic to suggest male plants are taller like male animals, *because of hormones*.
Well hey back...

It is simplistic, yes. But it is a fact that hormones (particularly male hormones that in turn activate growth hormones) do make males larger in both species. I was simply making a statement about the physiology comparison, and I am not saying that they evolved this way for similar reasons, which they did not. But hormones are what make the difference in size between sexes in both humans and Cannabis. What in turn has driven the male hormones in these species is another discussion. You seem to want to delve into that on a grand scale. Well, I do not want to go down to the level of parallel evolution, quantum field theory and the theory of relativity to explain exactly why the universe is the way that it is in every post here. Life is too short for that. If I am too simplistic for you, so be it.

Or are you just picking a fight with me here over piddly BS? Seems people here like to do that. Especially the Aussies.
 
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Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Well hey back...

It is simplistic, yes. But it is a fact that hormones (particularly male hormones that in turn activate growth hormones) do make males larger in both species. I was simply making a statement about the physiology comparison, and I am not saying that they evolved this way for similar reasons, which they did not. But hormones are what make the difference in size between sexes in both humans and Cannabis. What in turn has driven the male hormones in these species is another discussion. You seem to want to delve into that on a grand scale. Well, I do not want to go down to the level of parallel evolution, quantum field theory and the theory of relativity to explain exactly why the universe is the way that it is in every post here. Life is too short for that. If I am too simplistic for you, so be it.

Or are you just picking a fight with me here over piddly BS? Seems people here like to do that. Especially the Aussies.
Theory of relativity?
Lol

Male insects don't always show sexual variation
The ones that do are often smaller.
Nor do many male fish show different size in sexes.
Birds don't always show difference in size between sexes.
Nor reptiles.
They all have sex hormones obviously

Nature isn't extravagant, if an animal is larger, it needs more energy and can die from undernutrition more easily.

Some animals show sexual dimorphism, but not as many as you may think.

Male canna is taller just cos it's a dude, like us, is pretty glib.

I replied to your post because, as I said before, it's just ridiculously simplistic, and I offered what I thought was a more reasonable cause for the canna male to be taller.

It's not to pick on you, lol, like everyone else out to get you, or whatever you reckon is going on.

I do think that male canna plants are taller to spread pollen more efficiently to the shorter femmes, though.
 
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Tom bolenate

Active member
do think that male canna plants are taller to spread pollen more efficiently to the smaller femmes, though.
Yes and they also often flower a bit faster to be ready at the right moment for females.
I also think that the male hormones hypothesis is wrong... Females are a bit smaller but are way bigger.... They produce more biomass than the tallers but skinnier males....
Antropomorphism is a comon bias we all make when we try to study animals or plants.... I don't claim it's the truth just my two cents piddly BS Frenchy opinion.....
 
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megnu

New member
I was listening to the Potcast with DJ Short and he talks about picking good males to work with. Interesting stuff I think we have not even touched the surface of the science yet I hear a lot justifying breeding fem seeds because selfing is common in agriculture. But where is the research on long term effects of STS?
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Yes and they also often flower a bit faster to be ready at the right moment for females.
I also think that the male hormones hypothesis is wrong... Females are a bit smaller but are way bigger.... They produce more biomass than the tallers but skinnier males....
Antropomorphism is a comon bias we all make when we try to study animals or plants.... I don't claim it's the truth just my two cents piddly BS Frenchy opinion.....

Good point on the biomass.

## hey BS, cheers for the PM telling me I'm on your legendary ignore list, now.
I was surprised I wasn't already on it.

You would have more members on that list, than members you feel comfortable communicating with, wouldn't you??


bill-and-ben1.jpg
 
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59lespaul

Member
Do you know of a seedbank or breeder that stocks Maui waui cherry bomb, Durban poison I had read Columbians can take a life time to finish. My indoor set up is small but I can wrangle sativas and train them but super long flowers are a test of my will and also my bud supply.

Sativas need to be preserved in this day and age of cannabis... It's the landraces we seem to be losing with all the fad strains and fast flowering indicas, it seems everyone just wants to smoke and glue their arse's to the sofa lol.

Bong

Swami Organic Seeds has the real deal Cherry Bomb straight from the original breeder. Mr Greengenes.
 

Big Sur

Active member
Can't look at their selection of beans for some reason.

Cheers for the shout-out though mate I'll definitely look into them.

Bong
I heard it through the grapevine from a reliable srouce that their MWCB had been inadvertently bred with Vietnam Black, and as such now has VN and herm traits. I do not see CB listed on their web site any more. They only have CB listed in a couple of hybrids. To get to the list you have to click on 'seed request' and scroll down, and to the right is the available strain list.
 
I heard it through the grapevine from a reliable srouce that their MWCB had been inadvertently bred with Vietnam Black, and as such now has VN and herm traits. I do not see CB listed on their web site any more. They only have CB listed in a couple of hybrids. To get to the list you have to click on 'seed request' and scroll down, and to the right is the available strain list.
Cheers sur appreciate the help :)
I'm finding any true strain is a pain in the arse to get hold of, I want to taste the true oldschool but it's seemingly impossible to find.

Bong
 

Big Sur

Active member
Yes and they also often flower a bit faster to be ready at the right moment for females.
I also think that the male hormones hypothesis is wrong... Females are a bit smaller but are way bigger.... They produce more biomass than the tallers but skinnier males....
Antropomorphism is a comon bias we all make when we try to study animals or plants.... I don't claim it's the truth just my two cents piddly BS Frenchy opinion.....
Not sure I follow you here. How can females be smaller and bigger? I simply pointed out that males are taller (on average) in both species. I do not see any anthropomorphism here per se. I am not saying that human males being taller than females has anything to do with Cannabis males being taller than females. Far from it. We evolved differently and the hormones controlling growth are different. I am only saying that hormones are what control the different suxual expressed phenotype attributes in both species, and in both cases, they result in males being taller (again on average). A coincidental result. Yes, there are exceptions, and some females are taller and bigger than males in both species. I get that... I am only talking about general species averages here. And the fact that they are hormone controlled. Many female Cannabis plants will also grow larger than males because they are grown as sinsemilla. This is not a commonly natural occurrence though. And humans have and can grow MASSIVE female cannabis plants of either sex. I have.
 

Vlad the Inhaler

Active member
Not sure I follow you here. How can females be smaller and bigger? I simply pointed out that males are taller (on average) in both species. I do not see any anthropomorphism here per se. I am not saying that human males being taller than females has anything to do with Cannabis males being taller than females. Far from it. We evolved differently and the hormones controlling growth are different. I am only saying that hormones are what control the different suxual expressed phenotype attributes in both species, and in both cases, they result in males being taller (again on average). A coincidental result. Yes, there are exceptions, and some females are taller and bigger than males in both species. I get that... I am only talking about general species averages here. And the fact that they are hormone controlled. Many female Cannabis plants will also grow larger than males because they are grown as sinsemilla. This is not a commonly natural occurrence though. And humans have and can grow MASSIVE female cannabis plants of either sex. I have.
Smaller ( shorter ) and bigger ( more biomass, stockier )

If hormones control all expression in growth , HGH auxin etc, and sexual hormones relate to sexual expression in both plants and animals, I still don't understand the association you are suggesting.

You can grow any plant large by giving it good root space and a very long veg time.
If you grew a male in a 200 gallon tub, and vegged him for 8 months, he would be a tree also, wouldn't he?

You were originally writing about same genotype growing in same conditions, weren't you?
Not growing one plant or another in more favorable environment.
 
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