Do you even need a male anymore?

Males are still very important. In my opinion a male has the ability to cary its own lineage and bloodline in its own individual direction. With out males your taking a fasttrack to inbreeding problems. Iv seen this myself with for example some of the cookies based lines. Some cookies seedlines out there have there entire lineage based on reversed female clones. In these lines ive seen some serious inbreeding problems. Deformities, low vigour, low resistance, auto flowering, low yields, week sick looking plants that take months to veg similar sizes to normal plants. Now if the line had originally been planned and the male and female parents progeny tested to breed a proper line I dont think these issues would be there. What we have now is a seriously contaminated gene pool due to people useing bag seed from hermie prone lines and chucking reversed pollen on already reversed lines to the point were no one really knows the lineage to half the things. Doing this for 20 years has caused some serious degradation in the pool.
 
Males are still very important. In my opinion a male has the ability to cary its own lineage and bloodline in its own individual direction. With out males your taking a fasttrack to inbreeding problems. Iv seen this myself with for example some of the cookies based lines. Some cookies seedlines out there have there entire lineage based on reversed female clones. In these lines ive seen some serious inbreeding problems. Deformities, low vigour, low resistance, auto flowering, low yields, week sick looking plants that take months to veg similar sizes to normal plants. Now if the line had originally been planned and the male and female parents progeny tested to breed a proper line I dont think these issues would be there. What we have now is a seriously contaminated gene pool due to people useing bag seed from hermie prone lines and chucking reversed pollen on already reversed lines to the point were no one really knows the lineage to half the things. Doing this for 20 years has caused some serious degradation in the pool.
I agree. about the cookie. my friend has the original cut. I've grown quite a few other cuts, and hybrids with the forum cut(he gave me mac 1 caps cut, but will not share the cookie, its weird). IMO the best someone can do is cross it to an Afghani like bodhi did, and make massive high yielding "fortune cookie" type hybrids that aren't hermie accident trash.
 

Wilbur Stagg

New member
I have seen that with almost all of my landrace grows. The males generally grow better and faster than the females. But that should only be due to hormones, as it is in humans, hormones are what really control the sexual phenotype and growth. Male humans are also on average larger than female humans. Only 6% of flowering plant species retain the dioecious (male and female sex) trait though. So it is far more rare in plants than in animals.

Breeding from feminized females in my experience results in fewer males and more females. Also more herms. Rob Clarke says in his old book Mj Botany that the ratio of females to males in the general population of Cannabis plants as far back as 1981 was already 60/40 F/M due to selecting grows for females to produce sinsemilla. He states that the ratio can go as high as 80/20 F/M in heavily female selected breeding stock.
I always assumed that the males grew taller so as to be able to spread their pollen wider and further in the wind and reach as many females as they can . Through natural selection taller males would eventually become dominant . From the plants perspective the seed bearing female being a little more predominant is probably a healthy thing at 60 40 . The old timers told me years ago that a close to 50 50 ratio is a sign of good stable breeding . Has anyone else noticed the very even male to female ratio in all mns packs compared to most other so called breeders packs. I consistently get 9 or ten females out of 18 seeds. I have grown many indoor cuttings that were stable inside for veg and flowered outside. A small percentage would hermie, no nanners would show . A single male embryo would pollinate a single calyx and you would get just one or two seed per plant that did turn. Those seeds would all be female. If you reveged those plants then flowered them all again a greater percentage would hermie, or if you grew their seed or their seeds seed every subsequent generation would hermie at a greater rate until you ended up with plants that were almost half female half male in expression. I would only grow the seeds from those plants outside and only for a single season and never take cuttings or breed with them as the hermaphrodite trait was prevalent. And only for experiment and a lack of access to copious amounts of good seed as there was a period after hydroponics went mainstream that males and natural propagation were forgotten about it was all about growing the same female indoors from cuttings, and the odd seed you got in a bag of hydro was obviously an accidental fem as no one was growing males in their commercial crop. It led to a decrease in genetic diversity. Thankfully some had the foresight to save and preserve the gene pool . The same old timer told me that hemp was only one of six or seven plants in the world that would change sex in this fashion and that it was a survival instinct ,that all hemp plants have the ability to do so under stress and that possibly thousands of years ago there was only a single female left on earth which all the plants decend from and she did this to save the species from extinction . If so I am very great full.
 

Wilbur Stagg

New member
it's the same in every domain

society become feminised

in the chicken breeding they alway work with the male

the male is the deteminent of many factors like taste in weed with my personnal expereience

the femelle is more for the structure of the plant
The more feminized society becomes the more cosmetics the drug companies can sell . They only had half the market taped. They said so themselves at the beginning of this "movement"
 

Wilbur Stagg

New member
I post when I have the time. One fellow here from Oz that used to BS me all the time is banned now, so things are better. Was a time here when my posts would just get a lot of flap.

Fems can be used for breeding if you want to breed hybrids with other males. However, the issue with fems is that to breed them correctly, you need to chemically induce herming in them, and not use natural herms. Natural herms, random herms and herms forced by stressing will have and will pass on genetic herm traits. Like your Thai. Non-natural and non-stress response herming plants will not have herm genes. Thus those are the ones you want to breed with. But that takes plant stress testing, skill, experience and the right chemicals to induce herms. They also have to be bred with another female plant, or you will get the S1 self bottlenecking of genetics. The flip side is that it is really easy to produce seeds from natural and stressed herms bred S1, and hence they tend to be common. Read: Beware. There are a lot of fly-by night seed companies out there. Personally I have only used regular seeds from a relatively few seed companies, in particular MNS, RSC/Kwik, DJ Short, and Blue Hemp (defunct now). Most all of my seeds (save for 2 strains that I bought from central Africa) I collected myself from lids, or I traded for. Some of those early California lid seeds have hermed on me though, especially local grown sinsemilla from the early 1980s. Those herms tend to be half or quarter upper cola male flowers, in mid-bloom cycle. As opposed to Thai and Vietnam Black which have late bloom cycle single male pistil 'mutant' blooms. Herming was not well known about in the 1970s or even the 1980s. Nor was a lot about breeding weed in general. Books were few and growing experience was limited. I learned how to grow sinsemilla from a Mexican from Jalisco in Carmel Valley in the later 1970s. It is easy if you know what to do. But back then few knew. Or they were not diligent.

I do not know of any "stable" Thai or Vietnam Blacks. Especially landraces from SE Asia like those available at RSC. They are genetically prone to herming. Likely that trait has been bred into them over decades or even centuries of local SE Asia growing customs. They also bloom really really late. Like into January or even February late in North America. And they tend (for me at least) to be prone to PM from blooming so late into the fall and early winter here. PM is a new world disease, and Cannabis is an old world plant. For me SE Asian males also bloom ~later~ than the females. The males are also harder to force blooms using light dep. And even using light dep, the VN Black still did not finish until December here (under lights starting in late September). I know that Thai and VN Black herming has escaped into other strains as well. Some old school top breeders have reported that to me. Pollen is a very fine dust in the air barely visible. A cat, dog, kids, or bugs can track and transport it around. For that reason I have 5 greenhouses here. The males are in one, the females in another, and the other three are used for breeding one type of male with females. This also keeps any neighbors' or hemp farm Cannabis pollen from fathering any of my plants. Hemp here in Oregon is predominately fems grown from clones (or "plugs" as they call them) or fem seeds though, so pollen drifting from hemp farms is not really an issue.

I also collect and dry and freeze pollen for future breeding. That way I can select from a wider variety of males and strains, and breed last year's males with this year's females. I can also breed hybrid plants that would otherwise not bloom at the same time. This year I am breeding a mj male I grew last year that is a hemp strain this year, and both have high CBC. That is CBC, not CBD. They tend to be confused. Generally frozen pollen stays viable for about 2 years for me. For whatever reason. I also freeze seeds and hashish. Frozen, seeds and hash can last indefinitely. I have Oaxaca, Mexico lid seeds that I have had from the 1975 grow season that sprouted at a rate of 80% this year.
Big Sur, hi I don't understand the biological science with feminized seeds. I've only once put a male over a feminized plant , the offspring did not hermie but they were very poor quality compared to the parents and very leafy. Do you know what's going on with the chromosomes ect in these crosses compared to a normal cross ,and can it be viable or should it be avoided. I may try it again on something else. The fem was a Dutch passion blueberry I got as freebies. Male was ecsd x gg4 .The same male produced very nice offspring from all other crosses with reg females. 3 others. Nothing beats experience. Thank you in advance.
 

Big Sur

Active member
I always assumed that the males grew taller so as to be able to spread their pollen wider and further in the wind and reach as many females as they can . Through natural selection taller males would eventually become dominant . From the plants perspective the seed bearing female being a little more predominant is probably a healthy thing at 60 40 . The old timers told me years ago that a close to 50 50 ratio is a sign of good stable breeding . Has anyone else noticed the very even male to female ratio in all mns packs compared to most other so called breeders packs. I consistently get 9 or ten females out of 18 seeds. I have grown many indoor cuttings that were stable inside for veg and flowered outside. A small percentage would hermie, no nanners would show . A single male embryo would pollinate a single calyx and you would get just one or two seed per plant that did turn. Those seeds would all be female. If you reveged those plants then flowered them all again a greater percentage would hermie, or if you grew their seed or their seeds seed every subsequent generation would hermie at a greater rate until you ended up with plants that were almost half female half male in expression. I would only grow the seeds from those plants outside and only for a single season and never take cuttings or breed with them as the hermaphrodite trait was prevalent. And only for experiment and a lack of access to copious amounts of good seed as there was a period after hydroponics went mainstream that males and natural propagation were forgotten about it was all about growing the same female indoors from cuttings, and the odd seed you got in a bag of hydro was obviously an accidental fem as no one was growing males in their commercial crop. It led to a decrease in genetic diversity. Thankfully some had the foresight to save and preserve the gene pool . The same old timer told me that hemp was only one of six or seven plants in the world that would change sex in this fashion and that it was a survival instinct ,that all hemp plants have the ability to do so under stress and that possibly thousands of years ago there was only a single female left on earth which all the plants decend from and she did this to save the species from extinction . If so I am very great full.
Unlikely that Cannabis was bottlenecked to that extreme. It would not survive from a mere one plant. And the genetic variation today is way too wide for that to have happened. Cannabis has been around for a long time, in the millions of years. A lot longer than humans. Humans are said to have been genetically bottlenecked to a few hundred thousand in population at some point, leading to our current similarity in genes. But there were likely far more humans alive at that time of bottlenecking, its just that we descend from several hundred thousand at that time for whatever reason. Natural selection, geophysical or meteorological events, warfare or disease. Some 4% of plant species retain male and female sexes. Also I have observed that not all Cannabis plant will herm under stress. It is a genetic train that seems to be more prevalent in SE Asian strains (and Colombian strains that are descendants of SE Asian strains). I have stressed the original White Widow to near death multiple ways (mainly from neglect) and cloned the absolute crap out of it multiple years in succession, moving them indoors and outdoors and back again, and it NEVER EVER hermed. It was female and always stayed female. Maui Waui Cherry Bomb never hermed on me either for that matter. Grown many years, cloned many generations, grown under lights and outdoors. My Durban lines never hermed either.
 

Big Sur

Active member
Big Sur, hi I don't understand the biological science with feminized seeds. I've only once put a male over a feminized plant , the offspring did not hermie but they were very poor quality compared to the parents and very leafy. Do you know what's going on with the chromosomes ect in these crosses compared to a normal cross ,and can it be viable or should it be avoided. I may try it again on something else. The fem was a Dutch passion blueberry I got as freebies. Male was ecsd x gg4 .The same male produced very nice offspring from all other crosses with reg females. 3 others. Nothing beats experience. Thank you in advance.
Fem seeds are made naturally in the wild by a female plant that is genetically biased to producing hormones under stress that generate male flowers and pollen. In the case of SE Asian and Colombian strains that I have grown that usually occurs late in growing sinsemilla buds. In those the male flowers occur really late season and they are rather mutant looking with only one single stamen that looks like a tongue. In some of the modern overly inbred hybrids that I have grown a female may produce an upper branch or branches at the top of a plant that are all male with clusters of typical and complete pendant male flowers. Either way, all of that pollen will have only one female X gene and no Y genes. So those plants will only produce seeds with XX genes which will all grow into female plants.

Fem seeds made on purpose may be from plants that are forced into herming by stress. This is not recommended or desired, but it is done or happens by chance anyway. The preferred method is to try and force a herm by stressing a female plant, and if it does not herm under stress, only then is the female plant forced to herm by chemical means. There are several hormones and chemicals that when applied to Cannabis plants will force them to change sex. From male to female, and female to male. After that, the method used to produce the feminized seeds will vary the results of the successive lines. If the fem XX seeds were made from one self-pollinated plant (the so called S1), the genes will be bottlenecked. They will have fewer genes and less variability than when chemically induced hermed female pollen if produced and bred with another different female plant. The later is the way that any herms should be bred to keep vitality and genetic variation higher.

Some breeders these days will also intentionally breed seeds that are only good for one generation. Or breed strains that are self sterile. There are various breeding methods to do this. Sometimes it happens by chance or from poor breeding practices though. For that reason you may have gotten some dud seeds that grew great one generation and then the successive generation was crap. Or the plants you used to breed with were not very genetically compatible. I have found that to be the case with some strains that I have bred. Not all strains are great for breeding. In fact, many hybrids are not very good breeders. Which is why a lot of seed companies give away a lot of free seeds. That and the fact that seeds have a limited shelf life. And the fact that over time, the so called "genetic drift" occurs, This can happen after 4-5 generations of interbreeding resulting in weaker plants. This has been known for centuries in growing Cannabis in new locations. What is happening is gene switching. The plants are not mutating, but adapting themselves with the same set of genes to a new climate or growing environment. Genes can switch on or off in a single generation. Hence you need to carefully select the plants that you breed with. For this reason I only breed first and second generation landrace strains. Lest they adapt and lose their original viability, quality and potency.
 
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300dutchman

Member
You are right, but Canada is way ahead of you.
In Ontario, you are only allowed to grow 4 plants and coincidentally you are only allowed to purchase 4 female seeds from the Ontario Cannabis Store.
See the screenshot below.
View attachment 46106
the Canadian model is going to wipe out genetic diversity and will keep the "black market" rolling, the concept of what canada wants to do reeks of mosanto style of thinking, control control control and make a pile of money, people will be locked up for not using government certified genetics in the future here, from what i understand the canadian gov wants to imprint the seeds at a gentetic level so once the plant grows they can use a uv light to visually see the marker that was placed in it and hence if you are caught without that gov seed you are now breaking the law, i live in canada even though they say its legal here it really is not, where i live if you are caught with herb not in a gov container you are subject to 1000$ fine and confiscated herb, the hypocrisy of this so called legal market here really stinks, in vancaouver where mike farnsworth created the c.s.u to dismantle all dispensary's, even though the paperwork for compliance was filed long ago the gov will not issue licenses to those people who had the dispensary store fronts, but people like terry lake a former minister has approval within a few months, the canadaian model i hope will not be followed in the rest of the world, if your plants are visible to the public your are breraking the law, there was a couple who hosted a art viewing in there private property in revelstoke bc last year and a off duty cop was there and called his on duty cops to come and seize the plants, arrest the host because the plants were now visible to the public because the art viewing was open to the public. sure grow 4 plants is great but not every province will allow that, like manitoba and quebec. canada is not a good reference on how to make a legal market accessible to everyone. this is one of the reasons i will continue to make my own seed even though that is illegal in canada. i am very lucky to live on the island here becasuse our island has a much more accepted culture here, the cops on the island leave most people alone in regards to cannabis unless you operate a storefront shop.
 
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