Do you even need a male anymore?

CannaFish

Well-known member
I think males are needed for the future diversity and preservation.

But if breeding for end product then males aren't really necessary. You can get faster results without males. You can also use selfing to test your females breeding worth.

"Let's say you have 5 individuals you really like, and want to breed them all. Self them first, and rank their progeny. Individual 1 has 1 of 30 that is similar to mom, plant 2 has 3, but plant 4 has 15 individuals in her S1 progeny that are similar to mom. Okay so then we can say that plant 4 is most homozygous of the group. Therefore, plant 4 will extremely likely be the best plant to breed with, be it repeating the self, using it as a recurrent parent in a backcross, crossing it out, no matter, the vast majority of the time plant 4 because it selfs well will have the highest breeding worth of all those plants we genotyped via selfing.

This is why doing away with the male (or reintroducing him later) makes a shitload of sense. But even if folk have an issue with that, and don't want to go there, determining the best female to breed to is a HUGE leap forward, maths wise. IE let's say you can grow 10 plants, you're now testing 9 males against your best (again, extremely likely) female instead of 5 males and 5 females you know nothing about, dig? There are maths we could put to it, but let's just say it's VASTLY advantagous to go about it in the former way."

-tom hill
 

longball

Well-known member
"I think males are needed for the future diversity and preservation."

Correct. Breeding with males creates diversity and keeps vigor. Good to have the male Y chromosome when breeding

"But if breeding for end product then males aren't really necessary. You can get faster results without males. You can also use selfing to test your females breeding worth."

This is also true. However, I would think at some point in the future a male Y chromosome would be helpful. Even needed due to all the inbreeding? To avoid 'inbreeding depression?

Longball
 
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quinxstar

Well-known member
it's the same in every domain

society become feminised

in the chicken breeding they alway work with the male

the male is the deteminent of many factors like taste in weed with my personnal expereience

the femelle is more for the structure of the plant
 

longball

Well-known member
"Do you even need a male anymore?"

Hello BB!

I am going to say that technically, no.

" Even though female Cannabis plants do not have the “male” chromosome, they are capable of producing viable pollen (hermaphrodite) that is the source of feminized seeds. Therefore, the genes required to make pollen are NOT on the Y-chromosome, but are located throughout the remainder of the Cannabis genome."
Source:
https://cannabisindustryjournal.com/feature_article/an-introduction-to-cannabis-genetics-part-iii/

However, I feel in the long run that you will need the male Y chromosome for the reasons stated earlier in the thread.

Longball
 

sensient

Active member
Hey, it seems Fem seed is taking over in a big way.
As you can see many breeders who used to offer regs now have switched to Fem only.
Then you have the seedbanks set up around Fem seed...and guys like GHsc.
There will always be a market for regs.
But yes, we need males....S
 

Big Sur

Active member
W/o males you are bottlenecking (reducing) genetics. Selfing can severely reduce genetics. Do a 2x2 plot of the genetic results of an S1/self. Look at what you get. A reduction in genetic possibilities in half and what accounts for a basic clone in the other half of any seeds produced. Yes, if you want to purposely restrict genes to breed for desired recessive traits, that is great. They do this with breeding dogs and other pets and livestock all the time. But at the same time you lose a huge amount of genetic variation and you can get undesirable traits as well. Over time in Cannabis, this almost always results in inferior plant strains. Similar things happen when you breed IBL over 4 or more generations with a restricted number of parent plants. Also there is the issue of gene switching, and Cannabis adapts to local environments rapidly. In my experience, this happens even faster when you run with smaller numbers of parents. Hence I use at least 2 males and 2 females in my IBL runs, and I breed at most 2 generations of plants from them. This year I am using a wider base of 4 females and 4 males to produce a wider range of genes in my landrace and heirloom lines. Why? Because I want the widest array of genetics as possible from the original lines. Or the opposite of selfing... which reduces the genetic array (or at best duplicates it) in each generation. Look at hybrids... which is the opposite of selfing. Cross an indica with a sativa, and you unleash a HUGE array of genetics. More variables and hence more possible results. Then its a matter of selecting what ones you want and breeding those. Many of the best heirloom and modern strains were developed like this (skunk, Maui Waui Cherry Bomb, Blueberry, for example). Some were the results of chance selfing, like Chem Dawg. But that is more rare. In my experience, the best strains are first generation indica x sativa. First cross wide array genetics blended.

Fem seeds are popular with seed companies for two reasons. One is that you get all females, and hence the grower is guaranteed all bud producing plants. Fems dominate the hemp industry for this reason, and are gaining in mj popularity as well. However, with fems, as a grower you lose the ability to generate seeds other than by selfing though chance (genetic predisposition) or forced herming. Which is good for the breeder, as you cannot breed with true males and generate seed in order to produce your own IBL or hybrid lines that they are selling. Arjan sells only fems so that you cannot breed his strains IBL, and there is a growing (IMO, sucker) market for fem beans so people get all females and hence all bud producing plants. But like GMO seed companies, you are always at the mercy of the breeder in this case, as you always have to go back to them to get more seeds to grow. You can get past this by cloning of course, and this is used widely in hemp and mj growing. Another issue with fems and particularly selfing is while you can breed for desired results more rapidly, you are also apt to get more undesirable results as well. Case in point, herming. Herming is genetic, and herms tend to beget more herms. It is commonly bred for using true males, and some strains, particularly those from SE Asia tend to herm. But that type of random SE Asian herming tends to appear singularly in buds with one pistil on malformed flowers. These also tend to occur late in blooming after breeding with true males to set seeds. Hence it has little impact on breeding. The other type of herming that I have seen is a whole branch or bud cluster will herm and produce clusters of true pendant male flowers. I have seen these in hybrids and from early heirlooms from California.

To that effect, I never self breed plants, and I never will, unless I were to get one female of one rare strain that no others are known. I had that happen but with a male once. Forcing males to herm female flowers produces 1/4 sterile seeds (YY), 1/2 males (XY) and 1/4 fems (XX). I have bred and run these types of seeds and I got only one female out of 8 plants/12 seeds. I could have continued this line, but the genetics were reduced and I got spindly plants. Better to start over again with a new batch of seeds, which I did after finding another source of the strain (in this case it was Kona Gold). I have also found that growing many hemp strains, even bred regularly with mj strains, I get all or almost all female plants. So the predisposition to sex seems to be genetic as well, and as Clarke and others have postulated, over-breeding for fems will result in more females being produced in subsequent generations, even if they are bred with regular males.

My 3 cents anyway. I am sure that "experts" here will refute my breeding experience like they do my 1970s California weed experience. It seems that the advertising and notions of seed peddlers like Arjan have gained traction, and they have a large following of a fem paradigm that I find perplexing and contrary to my knowledge and experience. Similarly the hemp industry is now all fem based. So like the commercialization of anything I guess. Leaded gas is good for you because it smells and tastes sweet. Sugar is good for you and fat is bad, even though high sugar intake typically leads to diabetes. Hell, cigarettes were good for you and we all smoked them right up to the 1980s. "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should..." as I remember the old B&W TV ad.
 
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longball

Well-known member
In the Cannabis Industry it will be called GMO. You can get all your gear at the government store! Male plants will be outlawed! :mad:

To answer the OP's question, " Do you even need males any more?". No. They are illegal to possess! haha

Grow your own seeds folks! That is one of the reasons Nevil started the Seed Bank. So that you could grow your own top shelf stuff and make seeds. 'Keepers' he called them. We have a lot of awesome growers on this site, and they post up, and they use male plants. So, yes, use male plants, no matter what the government or Arjan says! Best bet for males: MNS seeds :)

Longball
 
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sensient

Active member
W/o males you are bottlenecking (reducing) genetics. Selfing can severely reduce genetics. Do a 2x2 plot of the genetic results of an S1/self. Look at what you get. A reduction in genetic possibilities in half and what accounts for a basic clone in the other half of any seeds produced. Yes, if you want to purposely restrict genes to breed for desired recessive traits, that is great. They do this with breeding dogs and other pets and livestock all the time. But at the same time you lose a huge amount of genetic variation and you can get undesirable traits as well. Over time in Cannabis, this almost always results in inferior plant strains. Similar things happen when you breed IBL over 4 or more generations with a restricted number of parent plants. Also there is the issue of gene switching, and Cannabis adapts to local environments rapidly. In my experience, this happens even faster when you run with smaller numbers of parents. Hence I use at least 2 males and 2 females in my IBL runs, and I breed at most 2 generations of plants from them. This year I am using a wider base of 4 females and 4 males to produce a wider range of genes in my landrace and heirloom lines. Why? Because I want the widest array of genetics as possible from the original lines. Or the opposite of selfing... which reduces the genetic array (or at best duplicates it) in each generation. Look at hybrids... which is the opposite of selfing. Cross an indica with a sativa, and you unleash a HUGE array of genetics. More variables and hence more possible results. Then its a matter of selecting what ones you want and breeding those. Many of the best heirloom and modern strains were developed like this (skunk, Maui Waui Cherry Bomb, Blueberry, for example). Some were the results of chance selfing, like Chem Dawg. But that is more rare. In my experience, the best strains are first generation indica x sativa. First cross wide array genetics blended.

Fem seeds are popular with seed companies for two reasons. One is that you get all females, and hence the grower is guaranteed all bud producing plants. Fems dominate the hemp industry for this reason, and are gaining in mj popularity as well. However, with fems, as a grower you lose the ability to generate seeds other than by selfing though chance (genetic predisposition) or forced herming. Which is good for the breeder, as you cannot breed with true males and generate seed in order to produce your own IBL or hybrid lines that they are selling. Arjan sells only fems so that you cannot breed his strains IBL, and there is a growing (IMO, sucker) market for fem beans so people get all females and hence all bud producing plants. But like GMO seed companies, you are always at the mercy of the breeder in this case, as you always have to go back to them to get more seeds to grow. You can get past this by cloning of course, and this is used widely in hemp and mj growing. Another issue with fems and particularly selfing is while you can breed for desired results more rapidly, you are also apt to get more undesirable results as well. Case in point, herming. Herming is genetic, and herms tend to beget more herms. It is commonly bred for using true males, and some strains, particularly those from SE Asia tend to herm. But that type of random SE Asian herming tends to appear singularly in buds with one pistil on malformed flowers. These also tend to occur late in blooming after breeding with true males to set seeds. Hence it has little impact on breeding. The other type of herming that I have seen is a whole branch or bud cluster will herm and produce clusters of true pendant male flowers. I have seen these in hybrids and from early heirlooms from California.

To that effect, I never self breed plants, and I never will, unless I were to get one female of one rare strain that no others are known. I had that happen but with a male once. Forcing males to herm female flowers produces 1/4 sterile seeds (YY), 1/2 males (XY) and 1/4 fems (XX). I have bred and run these types of seeds and I got only one female out of 8 plants/12 seeds. I could have continued this line, but the genetics were reduced and I got spindly plants. Better to start over again with a new batch of seeds, which I did after finding another source of the strain (in this case it was Kona Gold). I have also found that growing many hemp strains, even bred regularly with mj strains, I get all or almost all female plants. So the predisposition to sex seems to be genetic as well, and as Clarke and others have postulated, over-breeding for fems will result in more females being produced in subsequent generations, even if they are bred with regular males.

My 3 cents anyway. I am sure that "experts" here will refute my breeding experience like they do my 1970s California weed experience. It seems that the advertising and notions of seed peddlers like Arjan have gained traction, and they have a large following of a fem paradigm that I find perplexing and contrary to my knowledge and experience. Similarly the hemp industry is now all fem based. So like the commercialization of anything I guess. Leaded gas is good for you because it smells and tastes sweet. Sugar is good for you and fat is bad, even though high sugar intake typically leads to diabetes. Hell, cigarettes were good for you and we all smoked them right up to the 1980s. "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should..." as I remember the old B&W TV ad.
%100!!....S
 

Seed Collector

Active member
In the Cannabis Industry it will be called GMO. You can get all your gear at the government store! Male plants will be outlawed! :mad:

To answer the OP's question, " Do you even need males any more?". No. They are illegal to possess! haha

Grow your own seeds folks! That is one of the reasons Nevil started the Seed Bank. So that you could grow your own top shelf stuff and make seeds. 'Keepers' he called them. We have a lot of awesome growers on this site, and they post up, and they use male plants. So, yes, use male plants, no matter what the government or Arjan says! Best bet for males: MNS seeds :)

Longball
You are right, but Canada is way ahead of you.
In Ontario, you are only allowed to grow 4 plants and coincidentally you are only allowed to purchase 4 female seeds from the Ontario Cannabis Store.
See the screenshot below.
1598796759691.png
 

Big Sur

Active member
You are right, but Canada is way ahead of you.
In Ontario, you are only allowed to grow 4 plants and coincidentally you are only allowed to purchase 4 female seeds from the Ontario Cannabis Store.
See the screenshot below.
I guess that is the way that Canada can keep a LID on things? ;)

Legal weed is still not legal. Here the limit is 10 seeds at a time. 4 plant grow limit.


speed limit 10.jpg
 
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BuzzardsBay

Active member
W/o males you are bottlenecking (reducing) genetics. Selfing can severely reduce genetics. Do a 2x2 plot of the genetic results of an S1/self. Look at what you get. A reduction in genetic possibilities in half and what accounts for a basic clone in the other half of any seeds produced. Yes, if you want to purposely restrict genes to breed for desired recessive traits, that is great. They do this with breeding dogs and other pets and livestock all the time. But at the same time you lose a huge amount of genetic variation and you can get undesirable traits as well. Over time in Cannabis, this almost always results in inferior plant strains. Similar things happen when you breed IBL over 4 or more generations with a restricted number of parent plants. Also there is the issue of gene switching, and Cannabis adapts to local environments rapidly. In my experience, this happens even faster when you run with smaller numbers of parents. Hence I use at least 2 males and 2 females in my IBL runs, and I breed at most 2 generations of plants from them. This year I am using a wider base of 4 females and 4 males to produce a wider range of genes in my landrace and heirloom lines. Why? Because I want the widest array of genetics as possible from the original lines. Or the opposite of selfing... which reduces the genetic array (or at best duplicates it) in each generation. Look at hybrids... which is the opposite of selfing. Cross an indica with a sativa, and you unleash a HUGE array of genetics. More variables and hence more possible results. Then its a matter of selecting what ones you want and breeding those. Many of the best heirloom and modern strains were developed like this (skunk, Maui Waui Cherry Bomb, Blueberry, for example). Some were the results of chance selfing, like Chem Dawg. But that is more rare. In my experience, the best strains are first generation indica x sativa. First cross wide array genetics blended.

Fem seeds are popular with seed companies for two reasons. One is that you get all females, and hence the grower is guaranteed all bud producing plants. Fems dominate the hemp industry for this reason, and are gaining in mj popularity as well. However, with fems, as a grower you lose the ability to generate seeds other than by selfing though chance (genetic predisposition) or forced herming. Which is good for the breeder, as you cannot breed with true males and generate seed in order to produce your own IBL or hybrid lines that they are selling. Arjan sells only fems so that you cannot breed his strains IBL, and there is a growing (IMO, sucker) market for fem beans so people get all females and hence all bud producing plants. But like GMO seed companies, you are always at the mercy of the breeder in this case, as you always have to go back to them to get more seeds to grow. You can get past this by cloning of course, and this is used widely in hemp and mj growing. Another issue with fems and particularly selfing is while you can breed for desired results more rapidly, you are also apt to get more undesirable results as well. Case in point, herming. Herming is genetic, and herms tend to beget more herms. It is commonly bred for using true males, and some strains, particularly those from SE Asia tend to herm. But that type of random SE Asian herming tends to appear singularly in buds with one pistil on malformed flowers. These also tend to occur late in blooming after breeding with true males to set seeds. Hence it has little impact on breeding. The other type of herming that I have seen is a whole branch or bud cluster will herm and produce clusters of true pendant male flowers. I have seen these in hybrids and from early heirlooms from California.

To that effect, I never self breed plants, and I never will, unless I were to get one female of one rare strain that no others are known. I had that happen but with a male once. Forcing males to herm female flowers produces 1/4 sterile seeds (YY), 1/2 males (XY) and 1/4 fems (XX). I have bred and run these types of seeds and I got only one female out of 8 plants/12 seeds. I could have continued this line, but the genetics were reduced and I got spindly plants. Better to start over again with a new batch of seeds, which I did after finding another source of the strain (in this case it was Kona Gold). I have also found that growing many hemp strains, even bred regularly with mj strains, I get all or almost all female plants. So the predisposition to sex seems to be genetic as well, and as Clarke and others have postulated, over-breeding for fems will result in more females being produced in subsequent generations, even if they are bred with regular males.

My 3 cents anyway. I am sure that "experts" here will refute my breeding experience like they do my 1970s California weed experience. It seems that the advertising and notions of seed peddlers like Arjan have gained traction, and they have a large following of a fem paradigm that I find perplexing and contrary to my knowledge and experience. Similarly the hemp industry is now all fem based. So like the commercialization of anything I guess. Leaded gas is good for you because it smells and tastes sweet. Sugar is good for you and fat is bad, even though high sugar intake typically leads to diabetes. Hell, cigarettes were good for you and we all smoked them right up to the 1980s. "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should..." as I remember the old B&W TV ad.
Such a great response. Thank you. I am learning
 
W/o males you are bottlenecking (reducing) genetics. Selfing can severely reduce genetics. Do a 2x2 plot of the genetic results of an S1/self. Look at what you get. A reduction in genetic possibilities in half and what accounts for a basic clone in the other half of any seeds produced. Yes, if you want to purposely restrict genes to breed for desired recessive traits, that is great. They do this with breeding dogs and other pets and livestock all the time. But at the same time you lose a huge amount of genetic variation and you can get undesirable traits as well. Over time in Cannabis, this almost always results in inferior plant strains. Similar things happen when you breed IBL over 4 or more generations with a restricted number of parent plants. Also there is the issue of gene switching, and Cannabis adapts to local environments rapidly. In my experience, this happens even faster when you run with smaller numbers of parents. Hence I use at least 2 males and 2 females in my IBL runs, and I breed at most 2 generations of plants from them. This year I am using a wider base of 4 females and 4 males to produce a wider range of genes in my landrace and heirloom lines. Why? Because I want the widest array of genetics as possible from the original lines. Or the opposite of selfing... which reduces the genetic array (or at best duplicates it) in each generation. Look at hybrids... which is the opposite of selfing. Cross an indica with a sativa, and you unleash a HUGE array of genetics. More variables and hence more possible results. Then its a matter of selecting what ones you want and breeding those. Many of the best heirloom and modern strains were developed like this (skunk, Maui Waui Cherry Bomb, Blueberry, for example). Some were the results of chance selfing, like Chem Dawg. But that is more rare. In my experience, the best strains are first generation indica x sativa. First cross wide array genetics blended.

Fem seeds are popular with seed companies for two reasons. One is that you get all females, and hence the grower is guaranteed all bud producing plants. Fems dominate the hemp industry for this reason, and are gaining in mj popularity as well. However, with fems, as a grower you lose the ability to generate seeds other than by selfing though chance (genetic predisposition) or forced herming. Which is good for the breeder, as you cannot breed with true males and generate seed in order to produce your own IBL or hybrid lines that they are selling. Arjan sells only fems so that you cannot breed his strains IBL, and there is a growing (IMO, sucker) market for fem beans so people get all females and hence all bud producing plants. But like GMO seed companies, you are always at the mercy of the breeder in this case, as you always have to go back to them to get more seeds to grow. You can get past this by cloning of course, and this is used widely in hemp and mj growing. Another issue with fems and particularly selfing is while you can breed for desired results more rapidly, you are also apt to get more undesirable results as well. Case in point, herming. Herming is genetic, and herms tend to beget more herms. It is commonly bred for using true males, and some strains, particularly those from SE Asia tend to herm. But that type of random SE Asian herming tends to appear singularly in buds with one pistil on malformed flowers. These also tend to occur late in blooming after breeding with true males to set seeds. Hence it has little impact on breeding. The other type of herming that I have seen is a whole branch or bud cluster will herm and produce clusters of true pendant male flowers. I have seen these in hybrids and from early heirlooms from California.

To that effect, I never self breed plants, and I never will, unless I were to get one female of one rare strain that no others are known. I had that happen but with a male once. Forcing males to herm female flowers produces 1/4 sterile seeds (YY), 1/2 males (XY) and 1/4 fems (XX). I have bred and run these types of seeds and I got only one female out of 8 plants/12 seeds. I could have continued this line, but the genetics were reduced and I got spindly plants. Better to start over again with a new batch of seeds, which I did after finding another source of the strain (in this case it was Kona Gold). I have also found that growing many hemp strains, even bred regularly with mj strains, I get all or almost all female plants. So the predisposition to sex seems to be genetic as well, and as Clarke and others have postulated, over-breeding for fems will result in more females being produced in subsequent generations, even if they are bred with regular males.

My 3 cents anyway. I am sure that "experts" here will refute my breeding experience like they do my 1970s California weed experience. It seems that the advertising and notions of seed peddlers like Arjan have gained traction, and they have a large following of a fem paradigm that I find perplexing and contrary to my knowledge and experience. Similarly the hemp industry is now all fem based. So like the commercialization of anything I guess. Leaded gas is good for you because it smells and tastes sweet. Sugar is good for you and fat is bad, even though high sugar intake typically leads to diabetes. Hell, cigarettes were good for you and we all smoked them right up to the 1980s. "Winston tastes good like a cigarette should..." as I remember the old B&W TV ad.
Very interesting read Sur, keep going man I'm like Jonny 5 from short circuit..... Input input input lol

Fem seeds don't interest me except for a quick bud run like now just setting up again and need flowers, pretty soon I'm on the MNS reg beans looking for potential seed parents. My search for older genetics lead me here, classics still being made as they always have and still being sold not femmed and ruined.

On another topic do any of you guys know where I could acquire a stable Thai or mostly stable Thai to work myself? Thinking about the real seed company but its big gamble running such long flowers only for them to Herm or mega Herm as I've read a lot do.


Bong
 

Big Sur

Active member
Very interesting read Sur, keep going man I'm like Jonny 5 from short circuit..... Input input input lol

Fem seeds don't interest me except for a quick bud run like now just setting up again and need flowers, pretty soon I'm on the MNS reg beans looking for potential seed parents. My search for older genetics lead me here, classics still being made as they always have and still being sold not femmed and ruined.

On another topic do any of you guys know where I could acquire a stable Thai or mostly stable Thai to work myself? Thinking about the real seed company but its big gamble running such long flowers only for them to Herm or mega Herm as I've read a lot do.


Bong
I post when I have the time. One fellow here from Oz that used to BS me all the time is banned now, so things are better. Was a time here when my posts would just get a lot of flap.

Fems can be used for breeding if you want to breed hybrids with other males. However, the issue with fems is that to breed them correctly, you need to chemically induce herming in them, and not use natural herms. Natural herms, random herms and herms forced by stressing will have and will pass on genetic herm traits. Like your Thai. Non-natural and non-stress response herming plants will not have herm genes. Thus those are the ones you want to breed with. But that takes plant stress testing, skill, experience and the right chemicals to induce herms. They also have to be bred with another female plant, or you will get the S1 self bottlenecking of genetics. The flip side is that it is really easy to produce seeds from natural and stressed herms bred S1, and hence they tend to be common. Read: Beware. There are a lot of fly-by night seed companies out there. Personally I have only used regular seeds from a relatively few seed companies, in particular MNS, RSC/Kwik, DJ Short, and Blue Hemp (defunct now). Most all of my seeds (save for 2 strains that I bought from central Africa) I collected myself from lids, or I traded for. Some of those early California lid seeds have hermed on me though, especially local grown sinsemilla from the early 1980s. Those herms tend to be half or quarter upper cola male flowers, in mid-bloom cycle. As opposed to Thai and Vietnam Black which have late bloom cycle single male pistil 'mutant' blooms. Herming was not well known about in the 1970s or even the 1980s. Nor was a lot about breeding weed in general. Books were few and growing experience was limited. I learned how to grow sinsemilla from a Mexican from Jalisco in Carmel Valley in the later 1970s. It is easy if you know what to do. But back then few knew. Or they were not diligent.

I do not know of any "stable" Thai or Vietnam Blacks. Especially landraces from SE Asia like those available at RSC. They are genetically prone to herming. Likely that trait has been bred into them over decades or even centuries of local SE Asia growing customs. They also bloom really really late. Like into January or even February late in North America. And they tend (for me at least) to be prone to PM from blooming so late into the fall and early winter here. PM is a new world disease, and Cannabis is an old world plant. For me SE Asian males also bloom ~later~ than the females. The males are also harder to force blooms using light dep. And even using light dep, the VN Black still did not finish until December here (under lights starting in late September). I know that Thai and VN Black herming has escaped into other strains as well. Some old school top breeders have reported that to me. Pollen is a very fine dust in the air barely visible. A cat, dog, kids, or bugs can track and transport it around. For that reason I have 5 greenhouses here. The males are in one, the females in another, and the other three are used for breeding one type of male with females. This also keeps any neighbors' or hemp farm Cannabis pollen from fathering any of my plants. Hemp here in Oregon is predominately fems grown from clones (or "plugs" as they call them) or fem seeds though, so pollen drifting from hemp farms is not really an issue.

I also collect and dry and freeze pollen for future breeding. That way I can select from a wider variety of males and strains, and breed last year's males with this year's females. I can also breed hybrid plants that would otherwise not bloom at the same time. This year I am breeding a mj male I grew last year that is a hemp strain this year, and both have high CBC. That is CBC, not CBD. They tend to be confused. Generally frozen pollen stays viable for about 2 years for me. For whatever reason. I also freeze seeds and hashish. Frozen, seeds and hash can last indefinitely. I have Oaxaca, Mexico lid seeds that I have had from the 1975 grow season that sprouted at a rate of 80% this year.
 

BuzzardsBay

Active member
I post when I have the time. One fellow here from Oz that used to BS me all the time is banned now, so things are better. Was a time here when my posts would just get a lot of flap.

Fems can be used for breeding if you want to breed hybrids with other males. However, the issue with fems is that to breed them correctly, you need to chemically induce herming in them, and not use natural herms. Natural herms, random herms and herms forced by stressing will have and will pass on genetic herm traits. Like your Thai. Non-natural and non-stress response herming plants will not have herm genes. Thus those are the ones you want to breed with. But that takes plant stress testing, skill, experience and the right chemicals to induce herms. They also have to be bred with another female plant, or you will get the S1 self bottlenecking of genetics. The flip side is that it is really easy to produce seeds from natural and stressed herms bred S1, and hence they tend to be common. Read: Beware. There are a lot of fly-by night seed companies out there. Personally I have only used regular seeds from a relatively few seed companies, in particular MNS, RSC/Kwik, DJ Short, and Blue Hemp (defunct now). Most all of my seeds (save for 2 strains that I bought from central Africa) I collected myself from lids, or I traded for. Some of those early California lid seeds have hermed on me though, especially local grown sinsemilla from the early 1980s. Those herms tend to be half or quarter upper cola male flowers, in mid-bloom cycle. As opposed to Thai and Vietnam Black which have late bloom cycle single male pistil 'mutant' blooms. Herming was not well known about in the 1970s or even the 1980s. Nor was a lot about breeding weed in general. Books were few and growing experience was limited. I learned how to grow sinsemilla from a Mexican from Jalisco in Carmel Valley in the later 1970s. It is easy if you know what to do. But back then few knew. Or they were not diligent.

I do not know of any "stable" Thai or Vietnam Blacks. Especially landraces from SE Asia like those available at RSC. They are genetically prone to herming. Likely that trait has been bred into them over decades or even centuries of local SE Asia growing customs. They also bloom really really late. Like into January or even February late in North America. And they tend (for me at least) to be prone to PM from blooming so late into the fall and early winter here. PM is a new world disease, and Cannabis is an old world plant. For me SE Asian males also bloom ~later~ than the females. The males are also harder to force blooms using light dep. And even using light dep, the VN Black still did not finish until December here (under lights starting in late September). I know that Thai and VN Black herming has escaped into other strains as well. Some old school top breeders have reported that to me. Pollen is a very fine dust in the air barely visible. A cat, dog, kids, or bugs can track and transport it around. For that reason I have 5 greenhouses here. The males are in one, the females in another, and the other three are used for breeding one type of male with females. This also keeps any neighbors' or hemp farm Cannabis pollen from fathering any of my plants. Hemp here in Oregon is predominately fems grown from clones (or "plugs" as they call them) or fem seeds though, so pollen drifting from hemp farms is not really an issue.

I also collect and dry and freeze pollen for future breeding. That way I can select from a wider variety of males and strains, and breed last year's males with this year's females. I can also breed hybrid plants that would otherwise not bloom at the same time. This year I am breeding a mj male I grew last year that is a hemp strain this year, and both have high CBC. That is CBC, not CBD. They tend to be confused. Generally frozen pollen stays viable for about 2 years for me. For whatever reason. I also freeze seeds and hashish. Frozen, seeds and hash can last indefinitely. I have Oaxaca, Mexico lid seeds that I have had from the 1975 grow season that sprouted at a rate of 80% this year.
Love your posts
 
I post when I have the time. One fellow here from Oz that used to BS me all the time is banned now, so things are better. Was a time here when my posts would just get a lot of flap.

Fems can be used for breeding if you want to breed hybrids with other males. However, the issue with fems is that to breed them correctly, you need to chemically induce herming in them, and not use natural herms. Natural herms, random herms and herms forced by stressing will have and will pass on genetic herm traits. Like your Thai. Non-natural and non-stress response herming plants will not have herm genes. Thus those are the ones you want to breed with. But that takes plant stress testing, skill, experience and the right chemicals to induce herms. They also have to be bred with another female plant, or you will get the S1 self bottlenecking of genetics. The flip side is that it is really easy to produce seeds from natural and stressed herms bred S1, and hence they tend to be common. Read: Beware. There are a lot of fly-by night seed companies out there. Personally I have only used regular seeds from a relatively few seed companies, in particular MNS, RSC/Kwik, DJ Short, and Blue Hemp (defunct now). Most all of my seeds (save for 2 strains that I bought from central Africa) I collected myself from lids, or I traded for. Some of those early California lid seeds have hermed on me though, especially local grown sinsemilla from the early 1980s. Those herms tend to be half or quarter upper cola male flowers, in mid-bloom cycle. As opposed to Thai and Vietnam Black which have late bloom cycle single male pistil 'mutant' blooms. Herming was not well known about in the 1970s or even the 1980s. Nor was a lot about breeding weed in general. Books were few and growing experience was limited. I learned how to grow sinsemilla from a Mexican from Jalisco in Carmel Valley in the later 1970s. It is easy if you know what to do. But back then few knew. Or they were not diligent.

I do not know of any "stable" Thai or Vietnam Blacks. Especially landraces from SE Asia like those available at RSC. They are genetically prone to herming. Likely that trait has been bred into them over decades or even centuries of local SE Asia growing customs. They also bloom really really late. Like into January or even February late in North America. And they tend (for me at least) to be prone to PM from blooming so late into the fall and early winter here. PM is a new world disease, and Cannabis is an old world plant. For me SE Asian males also bloom ~later~ than the females. The males are also harder to force blooms using light dep. And even using light dep, the VN Black still did not finish until December here (under lights starting in late September). I know that Thai and VN Black herming has escaped into other strains as well. Some old school top breeders have reported that to me. Pollen is a very fine dust in the air barely visible. A cat, dog, kids, or bugs can track and transport it around. For that reason I have 5 greenhouses here. The males are in one, the females in another, and the other three are used for breeding one type of male with females. This also keeps any neighbors' or hemp farm Cannabis pollen from fathering any of my plants. Hemp here in Oregon is predominately fems grown from clones (or "plugs" as they call them) or fem seeds though, so pollen drifting from hemp farms is not really an issue.

I also collect and dry and freeze pollen for future breeding. That way I can select from a wider variety of males and strains, and breed last year's males with this year's females. I can also breed hybrid plants that would otherwise not bloom at the same time. This year I am breeding a mj male I grew last year that is a hemp strain this year, and both have high CBC. That is CBC, not CBD. They tend to be confused. Generally frozen pollen stays viable for about 2 years for me. For whatever reason. I also freeze seeds and hashish. Frozen, seeds and hash can last indefinitely. I have Oaxaca, Mexico lid seeds that I have had from the 1975 grow season that sprouted at a rate of 80% this year.
That's awesome Sur great read with my morning coffee.
A Thai is more about the old school for me, I'm only 31 so missed out on the golden days of imported wacky sativas from around the world. I want to try as many of them as I can acquire but the big issue is herming, as you say natural herming is a thing bred into a lot of old world strains as most didn't know better back then that is can deal with. A lot of the breeders now selling old strains are nothing but herms and super herms from reviews and logs I found "ace seeds" was one such name and the prospect of purple haze led me there.
I have read about Oaxaca a few times but not very detailed accounts of it, do you run a journal at all Sur? I'd love to see some of your work wild weed fascinates me.

Have a great weekend folks
Bong
 

shantibaba

Breeder and moderator
Hi All

been reading this thread as it is extremely relevant and something MNS and Shantibaba(I) treats seriously and have banged on about the downfall of all seed companies going purely for the buck as plant patents appear. The thing is in Nature female seed appears only when the plant does not have any males present and the female plant is passing maturity...that is why you see a few male flowers appear at the end of a female fast flowering strain as it ready itself to be impregnated with male pollen but failing this some strains produce the male flower at the top of the cola as a last ditch effort to continue its legacy...this seed is usually female as a result of selfing. However in normal populations you want to keep the genetic diversity open between strains to ensure low possibilities of inherent genetic issues or expressions...so diverse males provide this plus the Y chromosome which determines the plants sex. So what I have been saying from the onset of female seed is producers use them like female clones but do not use female seed selections for breeding projects. This will keep the resulting hermie issue at bay plus any other Pandora`s box issue we are opening up by reducing the natural sexes diversity with normal pollination of a Dieoecious plants.
Like most things that Man believes he can make better than Nature, usually has catastrophic consequences like rabbits in Australia, Cane toad to curb pest on Sugar cane....and so many more in so many countries.
At CBD crew project I allowed things to be made feminized as it helps those who do not have time to waste selecting a female...so it convinced me there was an application for female CBD seeds...and for flower producers to find new flowers......but keeping GMO type strains out of the breeding gene pool is imperative. We have been breeding and selecting out hermie tendencies for decades ....so putting back this is not really a wise thing in breeding. Considering most seed companies are no longer breeding seed but producing seed without males, it kind of makes MNS unique to have survived as a regular seed company in amongst the female seed craze.

All the best Sb
 

Big Sur

Active member
That's awesome Sur great read with my morning coffee.
A Thai is more about the old school for me, I'm only 31 so missed out on the golden days of imported wacky sativas from around the world. I want to try as many of them as I can acquire but the big issue is herming, as you say natural herming is a thing bred into a lot of old world strains as most didn't know better back then that is can deal with. A lot of the breeders now selling old strains are nothing but herms and super herms from reviews and logs I found "ace seeds" was one such name and the prospect of purple haze led me there.
I have read about Oaxaca a few times but not very detailed accounts of it, do you run a journal at all Sur? I'd love to see some of your work wild weed fascinates me.

Have a great weekend folks
Bong
The only real issues with herms I have found was with a very few California early hybrids from the late 1970s and some SE Asian landrace strains (Thai and VN Black in particular). Never had issues with Mexican, South African, Asian Indian, Hawaiian, Colombians or most current hybrids out there. No commercial clones have hermed on me either. This area was REALLY packed with old school clones when Medical was legal, and the first year that rec was legal in Oregon. People sold off their excess stock of strains that they had carried over the years. Then it all dried up in a hurry as commercial growers and people from WA state snapped them all up. I grew some good old school and more modern ones, like White Widow, Colombian Black, Blue Dream, GDP, Dutch Durban Poison, Grape Ape, Bubblegum, and Ghost OG Kush. Wish I had cloned that GDP. That was the real deal. Fake grape flavor, purple calyxes, great high for sex. I have tried growing 3 other sourced clones of that since, but they were all duds. Grape Ape was as close as I got. That was also a keeper. Wish I could have cloned and run them all indefinitely. But I have plant limits with my grow license here. And grow lights cost a lot of money to run through the winter.

I have no online stuff other than what I have posted on several forums. I was banned on 420Rag, IcyRag, and overgrow for telling my version of the hey days in California in the 1960s/1970s. And listing some of the landrace strains that I have. And about freezing seeds long term. That contradicts some really fat egos out there that have conned people over the years (we have posted about a few of them here). It also conflicts with a lot of poorly informed people that were not there. I also contradict some seed companies that are making a buck off of people peddling fake strains made to look like real ones (Big Sur Holy Weed for example). I know people in Europe that Ace, Cannabio and some others have ripped off for genetics. That was from the old European collectives, which is another story. Hence my not blogging about strains, and not posting photos of them online any more. As it is there are people posting my stuff on Instagram and other places. Some are fine, like Canna's posting about growing my Durban back cross strain here on MNS. But some others out there have posted photos and revealed way too much information about me that I am not happy with. While weed is legal here in Oregon, people will still steal plants and genetics. So I prefer my private life to stay private. Several have asked me to mentor them and want to come see my grow site here. I decline. Lots of people also beg me for strains. I no longer give out seeds or pollen. They have all resulted in undesirable fall outs for one reason or another. I still trade some, but only with people I have traded with before or have known a long time.

Sadly most of the stuff out there now is not what it once was. Indica genetics have crept into a lot of sativa strains as have herm genetics. Sativas are gettting rare now. Few seed companies offer them. Regular seeds are also getting rare now. Fems are all the rage. Genetics have been thinned out in too many generations. Also some strains are simply not what they were originally. Like White Widow. There is the Shanti GHS original WW, then there is the second completely different WW strain made and sold by Arjan & Co after Shanti left GHS. Then there is MNS Black Widow, Shanti's bred sibling of the original WW parent strains. In this day and age, anyone can call anything whatever they want. On the street, on the shelf or in seed packs. Back in the day it was obvious what weed was from Colombia, Thailand, Cambodia or Mexico. Both from the look, smell, taste, high, and the time of year that it was available. A lot of it was bunk weed or marginal. Less of it was good weed, and some of it was top shelf. There was no real advantage lying about the source location. Weed was so cheap then. $20-$40 a seeded lid. Hash was a treat, less available. Good weed and hash sold itself. California has so many sources. SE Asia, Europe, The Middle East, Mexico, Colombia, the Caribbean, and Africa. The weed and hash came to us in droves. Then the Paraquat spraying in Mexico and the move to better local grows in California and Mexico. That led to sinsemilla, and "lawyer weed". Which was great in the late 1970s, as it was cheap, $60-80 a lid. Then thanks to the greedy and ego starved shitheads at High Times Rag posting weed prices and photos from the around the states, people from 'back east' showed up to the west coast with suitcases full of money for weed. Prices skyrocketed. Weed growing then moved indoors and north to the Emerald Triangle. By the mid 1980s the SW Mexican weed industry fell apart. Colombia held on for longer, but also fell apart. Thailand stamped out all weed growing. No more Thai sticks. Hash could still be found, but it varied from year to year. Northern California dominated the market. They bred new lines. All weed was virtually seedless and potent as all fuck. For a high price. Then of course California legalized medical in the 1990s, and that turned the entire weed market on its head, all over again.
 
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