Reversing Male Plants

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wwwwww

Member
It is possible to reverse male plants and get regular seed. The two sets of XY chromosomes will give you two male seeds, XY, per four. The other two will be XX, or YY. Lets assume the YY does not grow, as that is not the proper set for a male or female. You will end up with regular seed that has a two in three chance of being male, and a one in three chance of being female. Therefore you could select an elite male (i'm thinking HazeC or the Afghan HazeA) and make a line just from this plant. I believe this could be used to make a much more pure haze line than even nevilles haze, and give people a chance to get a seed line that has a very strong HazeA influence by selecting through the Afghan HazeA line.
And this will not go against him not making femmed seed, as the seed will be regular. However, the seeds will probably not be f1 as that would mean only three out of four germinating, and selection is needed to get what you want from these plants.
Would you people be interested if shanti did this? I know I would.
 
yes, it does seem to work.
i have a female that came from two males.

would be cool if shanti would create a pure haze C line.
reverse it, pollinate it with itself. wonder if its been tried, because if we had the chance you know we would have already done it.
 
Nevil said:
Yep, done that. I selfed the HazeC male. Theoretically their should be 25% YY. I was looking for them.
I got about 33% females and 66% males, no intersex. I progeny tested maybe 20 males, All produced normal male to female ratio's and no intersex. The seeds had normal viability, so I guessed that YY would block seed growing in the first place.

None of the HzC male selfed, came close to being as good as HzC for breeding.
N.
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:):):):):):)
 
Wow blackberry, you must have had to dig deep into the forum to find that one. One thing he mentioned though- He selected twenty males. I think the goal would be to select from many more of these and make an IBL, to bring out the best of haze.
 
Actually I was rereading some old posts from Nevil and remember this one when you make the question.

Now the next one is big (and completely off topic, sorry) but I love it:

Nevil said:
The Dutch law reflected the terms of the treaty. Seeds were legal. I pondered the implications of this. The Law is all about what you can't do. If it's not in the Law Books, it's legal by definition. Extrapolating the idea further, if it is legal to possess seeds, then it's legal to buy, sell, import and export seeds, by International Treaty.

I went back to the couch. Smoking Oaxacan, I started to dream a new reality. I dreamed of a world where people like you and me could grow the best dope in the world. We could throw off the yolk of the slave masters and say "fuck you" to the system that oppresses and enslaves us. No more taking crap from the Man. Like Duncan McCloud in the Highlander I gained power every time I went to battle. I had a vision of a revolution and ideas began to crystallise. It was time to make hash.
I went to a lawyer and got him to confirm in writing that it was legal to possess, buy, sell, import and export cannabis seeds according to International Law. At the very least, I would be able to go to foreign countries and collect landraces and ship them to Holland legally and export them legally. I had the framework of a legal company and nobody could do anything about it. So called foreign imported seed was by definition proof that I didn't grow it. I had one of those Spiritually Enhanced moments that I knew with absolute certainty, "I'm a fucking genius!".

I contacted the High Times, who eventually put me on to their legal department. My logic was unassailable. I was running a legal business according to Dutch and International Law and I could prove it. I wanted to place an ad for my legal business. Why would the High Times discriminate against legal cannabis seed merchants? My ad got placed. I was a very small ad, Columbian and Nigerian seeds 4 for $1. You might have missed it, if you weren't paying attention. It was one of those defining moments in history that put the ball in our court.

Brutus:
There is a tide in the affairs of men.
Which, taken at the flood, leads on to fortune;
Omitted, all the voyage of their life
Is bound in shallows and in miseries.
On such a full sea are we now afloat,
And we must take the current when it serves,
Or lose our ventures.
Julius Caesar Act 4, scene 3, 218–224

The heavens split and cleaved off a new world. Probable realities became the new reality. I was captain of this ship and I could see where we were going. The future was mapped out in my mind's eye. The consequences of placing that ad was that people who had the good strains could now find me. All roads would lead to Rome and I'd just become Caesar. A bit presumptuous you might think, but I'd thought about this long and hard. My model of the future was based on millions of people being just like me. We were all crying out for what the '60s had promised us. It never happened, The US Federal government booted down the front doors of the peaceful revolution and tarnished the symbol of peace with their wars, but to me the other symbol of transformation was the Marijuana leaf. It was and is irrepressible, you see it everywhere. This was the symbol of hope and change. (get in line Obama)
It was still the dawning of the age of Aquarius and I was born under an Aquarian sky, with the Sun and the moon in Aquarius and I loved pot. If you lay on the couch and smoke enough dope, it all becomes clear to you. It was predictable that those who had worth while genetics would sell or swap seeds with me. It was just a matter of time and I was going to pull those buds out of the High Times and smoke them! Then I was going to breed even better varieties and my buds would be in the High Times.

One of the unchangeable laws of creation is, "What you put out is what you get back". The only way to get everything I wanted was to give everything I had. It was also a blow for freedom. I was putting seeds into peoples hands that could change their lives. If any of you chucked in a shit job and grew a lot of dope and made some money, then the plan worked. If it relieved your suffering in any way, then I have been blessed. If any of you grew any of my strains and became Spiritually Enhanced and want to share my crown, then that's OK too. If any of you feel that your lives are better because of what I've done, then I am twice blessed.
For some of you, more self empowerment lead to greater battles, that was my path too.
So this was the long answer to the question of whether I regret handing out pure strains. The short answer is ; "Not for one moment, for I am the master of my fate and I am the captain of my soul".
N.


I Am The Captain Of My Soul

Out of the night that covers me
black as the pit from pole to pole
I thank whatever gods may be
for my unconquerable soul

In the fell clutch of circumstance
I have not winced nor cried aloud
Under the bludgeonings of chance
my head is bloody, but unbowed

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
looms but the horror of the shade
and yet the menace of the years
finds, and shall find me, unafraid

It matters not how strait the gate
how charged with punishments the scroll
I am the master of my fate
I am the captain of my soul

"Invictus,"
by William Earnest Henley
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i know ive read everything posted by nevil and shanti over the years, but sometimes you just forget.

but to put this in perspective, nevil said he tested 20 males and none were better than haze C.
he also said that none of the hybrids made with C5 were better than the mother.
so i know he has been wrong before, or just not done enough work in order to come to the conclusion he has.
We as a community have grown more than he ever could, and have seen things he never did.
so 20 males means that path is a road to nowhere? nope
 
I truly believe Neville is a great breeder, but also believe his proximity to the birth of the modern seed business has put him and the plants that went through his hands on an unrealistic pedestal.
 
Kind of.

But if you read up on canna history and the "legends" from back then, then you more often than not find out that at some point later on, these people became shady, did shady things and were often just driven by pure greed or showed that they didn't actually understand much about the plants and breeding etc. but were driven simply by money.

This does not seem the case with Nevil.

And one of the reasons why I think it is understandable that he is put on such a pedestal. Also keep in mind that many look at his issues with the law as this sort of messiah "he died for our sins" -thing. Which in all honesty isn't THAT far fetched.

So I do understand his iconic status.

But I do agree that he is obviously not some sort of cannabis god. He is a human like you and me and as such deeply flawed in many ways.

Yet for his time, his work and what it has done for the community definitely deserve being put on a pedestal imho. Any more than someone like DJ Short for example? Not sure. But people like Nevil and DJ where you can't find any information on them doing shady things are very, very rare in this industry.

I just wish he would come back to MRN. Last thing I saw about him that was confirmed was him being on the board of AUSCAN but it seems he has since moved on and in the US there are several "underground breeders" popping up, claiming Nevil is working with them and offering seed lines with his name attached. Obviously most of them are fake but I wonder if he is actually involved in any of those and why he wouldn't rekindle his friendship with shanti and work with him on MRN again.
From what I remember, he didn't leave on bad terms or anything but due to the law pressuring him into exile?
 
I smoked STELLAR weed before Neville even dreamed of the Seed Bank. The myth is, modern breeders made cannabis good. That is a load of Caca.

They did improve the base line, but not what it is capable of. It already had the possibility to be just as good as A5, or the C male or the Thai stick, or bricked Asian weed that got me interested in the first place.

Being on his pedestal is fine, I am incredibly glad he did what he did. But THAT is separate from the issue of how good a seed is capable of being. Neville DID stand on the shoulders of the GENERATIONS of village breeders who selected for decades and centuries before Neville entered the picture.

I am actually growing an F2 from one of the more recent "legitimate" Neville products, a Neville's haze x Mullumbimby Madness. Stuff he made is definitely worth tracking down. He, however, is not the source. Cannabis is the source.

Added to all that, despite the hype surrounding the few seeds Neville managed to germinate, the sibling seeds from the batch Sam was holding continued to be grown, selected and bred on the Pacific coast in the US. It hasn't been standing still.
 
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PlantManBee said:
Added to all that, despite the hype surrounding the few seeds Neville managed to germinate, the sibling seeds from the batch Sam was holding continued to be grown, selected and bred on the Pacific coast in the US. It hasn't been standing still.
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That is another thing, the fact that nowhere hear about this hazes siblings means that either they are weak/bad or they are hoarded. None of both help us.
It's not only being a good breeder, it's the spread of the genetics too.
 
blackberry said:
That is another thing, the fact that nowhere hear about this hazes siblings means that either they are weak/bad or they are hoarded. None of both help us.
It's not only being a good breeder, it's the spread of the genetics too.
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"Haze" is a marketing name. Plenty of stellar Sativa grown out west. If you haven't heard about all the stellar west coast weed you haven't been listening. E32 Trainwreck being one. ;)

You can keep on believing that C haze was the best plant ever. The best weed I ever had was ...it's a toss up: One batch of bricked Asian weed from a Vietnam vet buddy, or Columbian Gold. I've had great weed since, but nothing like either of those.

I spent some early years trying to equal that with bag seed from the regions I mentioned, but the MNS HAVE been selected well.

Also, just because it's not hyped on the forums, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.


Best of luck and I hope you find what you are looking for. ;)
 
hey pmb, just curious if your haze x mm cross is the early or late madness, or what number NH it is.

i have the last of my haze x mm just starting to flower now. it was a NH23 x MMs.
all the crosses i got used the MMs, or eMM as some call it.

ive had a 21 x mm male for about 5-6 years now, didn have the opportunity to clone and keep the females.

then about two years ago i got around to the 35 x mm. didnt keep any males that time but still have two of the females

and now finally getting to the last of the crosses after all this time, i never put them in the fridge because i thought id get to them sooner. so i had bad germination and have just this one female to look at.

but i will make some 21 x mm x 35 x mm and 21 x mm x 23 x mm soon. almost like f2's but i guess its technically a linebreed of mullum.
 
jack hairy said:
hey pmb, just curious if your haze x mm cross is the early or late madness, or what number NH it is.
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NH21xEMM F2s. The one I remember finished fast, around 70 days, and was very good in my opinion. green mango and carrot smelling.
 
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the male 21m i have put out some resin and smelled like peach.
ive grown a couple plants that came from him and they were all better than the females i crossed him to, so thats a good sign.

so back to the reversing males, and although maybe the C has been tried a little, maybe it would be a good idea to reverse the other haze males used to make crosses, and use them as the females to cross with each other. just because some different combinations could be made.

like if there is no Afghan Haze A female, well there could be. same for the Skunk Haze A.
 
Triplep said:
How does one reverse a male?
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You can chemically treat them to force them to become female. Problem is that you still have XY genes in the 'reversed' pheno female true male sex ovums. So if you self or cross them with another male, you get seeds that are 1/4 XX (females), 1/2 XY (males) and 1/4 YY which will be sterile and not grow.

In the wild true females do produce random herms, but I do not know of true males that produce herms in the wild. I have read about some growers that have gotten female blooms on males. Hard to say if they are really true males in those cases though, as it is not uncommon that females will revert to become pheno males if they are stressed. In which case they would just be herming to their true sex.
 
The truth is though that we do not how this practice influences the gene pool overall in the long term.
Same as we don't with fems.

But I am on the side of the fence that says "rather not go that route because we can always go that route if we don't eliminate males from the gene pool but we cannot go back once we follow this route".

It is tempting, I understand.

But reversing males or females for that matter always seemed like a "hack" to me that should no longer be necessary with the advancing of testing/lab analysis.
And that hack has potentially huge and longlasting drawbacks that people fail to recognize or simply ignore because "hey, it's just potential".
 
Big Sur said:
You can chemically treat them to force them to become female. Problem is that you still have XY genes in the 'reversed' pheno female true male sex ovums. So if you self or cross them with another male, you get seeds that are 1/4 XX (females), 1/2 XY (males) and 1/4 YY which will be sterile and not grow.

In the wild true females do produce random herms, but I do not know of true males that produce herms in the wild. I have read about some growers that have gotten female blooms on males. Hard to say if they are really true males in those cases though, as it is not uncommon that females will revert to become pheno males if they are stressed. In which case they would just be herming to their true sex.
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G `day Bro

SE Asian genetics are herm or female .
Rare to find good true males . They start as an all male plant but in mid - late flower they throw out female flowers .

A lot of strains have herm males . They are rarely seen as most of the time they are killed before they get to maturity and far from full flower mode .
Ortega had herm males . I was very disappointed as I had plans for breeding with them .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
 
Agreed. Personally I never intentionally produce fem seeds, nor do I collect them or autos. I run males. But I do get the occasional micro-herm and they can produce viable seeds if I do not find them first. When trimming buds, some seeds pop out of unpollinated girls. I set them aside to give to people that want them. Problem is that seeds produced this way will beget more herms.

Chemically treating for sex change may not create a genetic tendency to generate herms though. They are forced by chemicals, not genetics. Also there are better ways to create fem seeds to cut down on future herms, but does every breeder do that? No. Many use the fastest way possible to make a buck.

Broseidon said:
The truth is though that we do not how this practice influences the gene pool overall in the long term.
Same as we don't with fems.

But I am on the side of the fence that says "rather not go that route because we can always go that route if we don't eliminate males from the gene pool but we cannot go back once we follow this route".

It is tempting, I understand.

But reversing males or females for that matter always seemed like a "hack" to me that should no longer be necessary with the advancing of testing/lab analysis.
And that hack has potentially huge and longlasting drawbacks that people fail to recognize or simply ignore because "hey, it's just potential".
Click to expand...
 
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