Polyploids in breeding

Dee.S_73

New member
Hi Shanti and everyone,
polyploids is today's subject as a few years ago I've been gifted from a Spanish friend 3 seeds of #bubblehaze that was a cross between a early 90s serious bubblegum and a Tom Hill Haze.
All 3 were males, 2 of them exhibited polyploid trait since the 3rd /4th internode all the way up to the top,
As polyploidy is a trait I've come to like in earlier breeding essays, back in the early 2000, I've decided to focus on those 2 guys so pollen have been collected from both and used in a few projects.
During my tests I've found a sizeable percentage of the offspring to carry the trait and in case of females, that made for a better yield.
I would love to know what are your thoughts on polyploids in breeding, given your extensive experience, @shantibaba
DS
 

n2ishun

Well-known member
I have a feeling that you are confusing polyploid with trifoliate or multifoliate.
You do know that polyploid is a deviant of the chromosones and is not really visable other than perhaps being a mutated size....like say an ox or eunuch.
 

Dee.S_73

New member
I have a feeling that you are confusing polyploid with trifoliate or multifoliate.
You do know that polyploid is a deviant of the chromosones and is not really visable other than perhaps being a mutated size....like say an ox or eunuch.
I've always used the trifoliate term till when a few years ago on a different forum I've been corrected to use polyploid, being whorled phylotaxy mostly an expression of polyploidy.
Let's go back talking about trifoliate, if it's more correct I'm only pleased 😉
DS
 

Dee.S_73

New member
First reason i used a trifoliate male in a cross, back in the early days, was to have a clearly visible trait showing up fast to understand better the mechanism and percentages of traits passing to the offspring from the male...
My renovated interest came, as I said in the opening post, after founding 2 on 3 trif. males, that were in every other aspects looking great as per breeding purposes.
During 2 years of testing of those crosses indoor and outdoor, the trait appears consistently in the offspring and I've found that in case of females that supplementary branch made for a better yield vs the "normal" sisters...
DS
 

PlantManBee

Well-known member
I don't think that trifoliate is an ideal trait to trace as it is often transient in the plants and disappears as the plant grows.

I tend to think of it as growing pains as the plant "decides" which set of genetic instructions to follow, as they all have several sets.
 

Kryppler

Active member
Bubblegum is some serious smoke that made me feel as if I was hanging out in a ceiling corner at the time. That must be the soaring aspect. I’d like to try some of that bubble haze. I have something to say of the subject. You are on the search for the grail, and you didn’t even know it. What even is the grail? A slave to the flesh I have been found unworthy by almost certain temptation. But what is enlightenment, if not finding all the knowledge you seek. Maybe together we can figure out a mystery of polyploids. I just found out about all this weed and grail shit in the last couple years by accident. I’m an artist that smokes weed and works construction. I don’t know much in the scheme of things but others interested in the subject may be mad scientist types that are very knowledgeable and just need to be drawn to the light to talk. I would pick their brain and trade sparks and theories in hope they will fan the flame of truth. I hope I am wrong, not only for both yours and my sakes, but also for everyone on earth interested in evolution or the truth of our existence, but I doubt shantibaba will discuss anything he knows of the subject with us pleibs. I know the stuff is dangerous to work with so requires discipline. There is a tale I heard once from India, perhaps someone could help me here... some god, shivas wife, mother of all, or someone, that you could pray to her, and 50% chance you might get an awesome crop or the whole land would be devastated for generations type deal. I will struggle through the depths of mystery with you, if you would like, and try to shed what light I can on the matter, since no man ever lights a candle to snuff it out. Wisdom and experience and reason will lead you to the truth. Polyploidy may be one of the most powerful natural forces in genetics and breeding on earth in my personal opinion. Through science, you may find a way to the truth of enlightenment if you are open minded enough to accept it. There are mad scientists that have studied the effects of polyploidy on cannabis more than any university around, right in their backyard. I am sure cannabis cultivation didn’t come by accident to Holland and Amsterdam, the world’s flower hq, to be left in its natural state. There are tons of polyploid crops we feast on everyday from watermelons to grain. BigSur can tell you about the gravenstein apples he has that are sterile triploids in a thread on this site. There is another thread on this site that deals with polyembrionic seedlings and I mention a little polyploidy there. Jesus may have carried around the dank smoke, I ponder in Musashi’s Holy Smoke grow journal. Hilariously, I searched for the holy grail of cannabis and I was not worthy... or they were out of stock or whatever. Haha. But on that quest, I stumbled into a bone chilling side quest involving the actual holy grail, the one everyone knows about and searches for but cannot find. What I found absolutely blew my mind worse than any cannabis I ever smoked. King Arthur, Excalibur, shooting stars, the blood of Christ, a naked Lady of the Lake and -polyploids. It feels strange for me to present this information on this site as I have just barely scratched the surface, but since you and I feel it is something worth discussion, I am sharing what I know. I bet you know more than I. Maybe we can have some fun and figure some things out. Is my infomercial working? I hope you are as interested as I, and I hope some older more experienced growers can chime in with their thoughts.
 

Kryppler

Active member
Nature is the ultimate perfect machine. I will always be trying to emulate a natural environment. When the plant first “sets down roots” is the earliest we as humans can tell what phenotype our cultivar is. It is not how the plant reacts to the environment. It is merely our own perception of what we notice about the plant in its environment. Is everything in the seed genetically already established? Or can the environment change the phenotypical expression at the moment the seedling first emerges with its little tail. Why change the heat and humidity and light to get more females if this is not so? It may not matter. Now when you double the chromosomes of the plant you have greatly increased the choices of phenotypes available to express in your environment. Think about crossing indica and sativa and getting the best of both worlds. If you have a sterile environment or maybe a biological paradise of beneficial organic dirt, the seed can take the best set of instructions to live in the environment and run with it like plant man said. I think that happens to some clones that “drift” off and lose vigor over the years. They turned off some instructions in favor of the stuff that works. I think that is why you need some real sun for mother’s now and then and organic dirt to keep them going and used to different media’s and environments, not just the cloners sterile environment, every generation the roots get set down. Now think in terms of natural disasters where mutation to new environments is life and death - like if a comet hit the earth- and life will find a way.
 

Cannalicous

Well-known member
All is determined in the seed and conditions decide how fully that can develop into being.
I might have dropped a bombshell here, but that is my conclusion.
 

CannaFish

Well-known member
Not polyploids. Whorled phylotaxy. N2ishun is correct. People fall into this paradigm fairly often where they think they have a polyploid and then excitingly post about their new breeding project.
 

Kryppler

Active member
First, I don’t think polyploids are for the casual breeder. Second, i am on a search for knowledge on this site, not to push or preach any falsehoods, but to find the truth. And there is no harm in the innocence of the search. The more I come to know, the more I realize I do not know. I hope you guys can take a step back and try to think of some possibilities even if just for fun before you go all naysayer. At least it led to someone “excitedly posting” something on this site. Heaven forbid someone has some fun here. I bet shanti has nothing against that. You can look the info up yourself or I can tell you how to find it if you’re a fast reader. Disprove or prove everything I say by looking up some facts or posting something other than your own beliefs to help us find the road of true info faster. Just saying “no that’s not true, conclusion.” seems a little dim. Like you dimmed the lights a little, put me in a mood. Do you guys have fun posting underhanded subtleties on other members threads publicly? Maybe that’s what shantibaba would like to promote here, I do not presume to know his thoughts, but I highly doubt it. Take some time to research and examine yours and my thoughts. If you have some bombshell information to contribute either to prove or disprove or to conjure any thoughts or possibilities on the subject, it would be welcome. Say it. It is public. You two have offered some opinions you believe in. I believe in kindness toward others and sharing some knowledge and good thoughts, as this herb promotes. I am talking of polyploidy, not of trifoliate leaf structures. It isn’t a shortcut to awesomeness, or a secret grail that someone is presently trying to cash in on, it is a powerful tool in the hands of a wise and experienced breeder. Look up the history of the Gravenstein Apple tree and you will see what I am talking about. Because of the amount of chromosomes it cannot easily be pollinated by other trees, clone only, I would like that in a huge field to avoid seeds if I didn’t want them. True sinsemillia. Seedless watermelons are grown through a similar process. Grows on every continent real good fruit, perfect branching, sterile. Clone only. I wasn’t there, but there is Sounds like NL5. The polyploid plants are out there. When you have the plant you have the plant. When you can make the new plant, that is something else. I see people argue on here over who’s got the real nl5. Who cares ?-when you can make it. But someone made that thing, they didn’t just come across it in a field. Or they did. Now look at some ABC cannabis from Australia, looks weird, and I will tell you what may be. Are there any Australians here that know the history of this plant? I have looked up some.

But trifoliate leaf structures, ducks foot and whorling MAY be a result of the polyploidy that shows up in future generations as a marker of past generations polyploids. But it is a mark of a genetic luck up. In plants, the unneeded,extra polyploidy chromosomes are slowly dropped off in subsequent generations, usually leaving little or no trace. Think in breeding and how it takes a couple generations to stabilize a line. And then there’s the Redwoods of Cali that are a whole race of polyploids themselves. It happens in nature. If you think you have a polyploid, you might be able to tell with your eyes, as is common in nature, maybe your good plant can’t get any seeds? just go to a university and look at some chromosomes in a microscope to verify, maybe it costs a lot, but if you’re breeding for a goal, then you can decide what’s it worth.
 

CannaFish

Well-known member
Kryppler i was responding to the OP. I didn't actually read your wall of text posts.

When a plant has 3 leafs at each node does not make it a polyploid or indicate polyploidism in it's genetics. this has been a frequent question on the forums.

I get a whorled plant nearly every time I pop more than a few seeds. I usually keep them around because I think they are cool and as plantman says they are a transient trait.

Strange leaf shapes does not indicate polyploidism either.

You're going to need a microscope if you are trying to visually identify them.

there are already people in the states making and selling them if you want it. search for oregon triploid
 

Dee.S_73

New member
@CannaFish
I see you didn't read also my subsequent msg so I'll quote it again and then we can go on talking about them : trifoliates or whorled phylotaxis , and not getting stuck on naming. ☮

I've always used the trifoliate term till when a few years ago on a different forum I've been corrected to use polyploid, being whorled phylotaxy mostly an expression of polyploidy.
Let's go back talking about trifoliate, if it's more correct I'm only pleased 😉
DS
As per the trait disappearing with age, I've personally grown to harvest a few specimens (those crosses have been tested last 2 years by me and a few testers, both indoor, outdoor and in greenhouse) keeping the trait at least every other internode from the 3rd till the top (in the main stem).

@Kryppler : I take you are not posting with a touchscreen device ;)lol.
Thanks for the positive contribution
:)

☮
DS
 

CannaFish

Well-known member
I think I’ve seen some of that bubble gum x haze grown out online and it looked like good shit.

Most plants in my experience go from 3 leaves per node to 2 leaves per node after the 3rd or 4th set of leaves. none of them have been keepers so I haven’t used them for seeds.

There’s a guy named GMT that has been breeding whorled plants together for many years. He has a thread on icm called something like bruised nuts.

 

PlantManBee

Well-known member
In my botany class the professor said it was whorled phylotaxy, not polyploidism.

I'll go with the guy with a doctorate instead of internet knowledge.

LOL. That includes information from me. Be skeptical of internet gurus and check out books and libraries.
 

musashi

Site Moderator
Staff member
polyploid.jpg
As wiki suggests- Ploidy is the number of complete sets of chromosomes in a cell, and hence the number of possible alleles for autosomal and pseudoautosomal genes.
Polyploidy- duplicate genetic information. Does it really increase yield and potency?

🤙Mu


*pic from philosopher seeds
 

Islandgrower

MNS Hall of Fame
Read somewhere that triploid cannabis the result of crossing a polyploid with a diploid is sterile so can't be used in breeding. So not sure of the benefits
 
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