EQ for me and you!!

sorry for shouting but

a clone is the same genetic material as the host

its only the grow style that changes
 
Yo thanks fer stoppin in, John and herb :)

Hey, in my experience, clones do not grow as exact representations from the seedplant to the first clone. IME, most successive generations of clone seem to stay very close - even under different indoor environments. I have spent much of my first year kicking myself for giving up a SSH plant (#2). The plant was DRASTICALLY different from the seedplant to the 2 clones I ran. Different smells, flower structure, flower development time (I didn't say finish time), even the high was very different. As I said, my experience has been that clones tend to differ from the seedplants too much for me to make any judgments (based on seedplants).

I wish it was as simple as 'find one I like, clone her, and fill the room...'

It seems to me that the seedplant is a vigorous suggestion of what is to come in the upcoming clone. Sometimes suggestions are, "Damn, you WERE right...", and sometimes they are, "...yeah, that makes sense now...". I dunno the science behind it, it is just my observations.

I am not a long time grower, but I have kept and run clones after running out the seedplants of (x different seedplants):
ssh x 5
spice x 2
shit x 4
mw x 1
superspice x 2 all in current room

martian mean green x 1
ecsd x la conf x 2
ogkush x g13/hz x 1 in flouro room

Of ALL of these plants, only 1 of the ecsd x la conf 95%+ the same plant from seed to clone. The others all had tons of variation from seed --> clone. Probably varied ~ to the same degree that the same clone would grown indoors and out. Again, observations.

I have also experienced my clones taking on a 'different' personality after being kept/cloned 6mo+. This I attribute more to environment.

I'm twisted off of some ssh f2 that I would have to love to run from clone, cause it was a WONDERFUL suggestion! :)
 
yeh, I attribute difference between seed/clone alot to improved situation for the plant, maybe late Sativas, being more lightsensitive, express different phenos under slightly different conditions.

Anyway, Barletta even tho i've grown for a bit I haven't grown home made seed yet. Just wondering if the seed represents the father equally or does the mother dominate a bit ? Thanks in advance :cool:
 
yeh, I attribute difference between seed/clone alot to improved situation for the plant, maybe late Sativas, being more lightsensitive, express different phenos under slightly different conditions.

Anyway, Barletta even tho i've grown for a bit I haven't grown home made seed yet. Just wondering if the seed represents the father equally or does the mother dominate a bit ? Thanks in advance :cool:

Dunno what my friend Barletta will say...but the sort of crosses and seeds that he makes make answering your question pretty close to impossible...even if he grew out the males he used. The genetics involved while all superior are complex. He's crossing multihybrids with multihybrids. The resulting seeds will have genetics all over the block. I'm not sure how you could tell where a particular trait came from. Then there's always the issue of the limited number of plants....

What do ya think B?

Anyone?

SativaFan

PS

I didn't grow my male out. I do know it showed lots of vigor early compared to the others I had. I just wagged it and chose the one I did on vigor more than anything else. Whatevvvvvvver!!!, my seeds are making some nice plants, whomever they look like the most :D
 
Well I grow for the females, so comparing the female offspring to the male parent is tough. I have to imagine how the male would translate into a female. So far, I've only grown enough Spice x SSH (SuperSpice) to make any kind of generalizations of the plants as a 'group'. I understand that on paper the SuperSpices are poly-hybrids, and I understand the concept of a 'Punet(sp)'square, and basic recessive-dominant traits. That bieng said, the (female) plants are everywhere inbetween the burnt rubber/indica HEAVY phenotype of the mom, and the incense/haze phenotype of the dad. Some of the plants grow like ssh and smell like the Spice. Some are an even balance. Some look just like the Spice and have hazy effects/smells...

As far as telling from which plant a trait came from, only the obvious ones would be easy to detect (um...obvious, lol). For instance, the Spice was a squat, chunky indica. She had fat, dark fan/sugar leaves, taking on an olive color in flower before going 100% purple. She smelled stinky skunky in veg. She was a stinker, as I can only remember a few plants smelling as much in veg. Early in flower, she was very skunky/sweet, with EARLY resin production. As she finished, the resin took on a very soft/slimy quality, and the smell started to go back to stanky. She finished ~10 weeks after I flipped her, and ~8 weeks after she started to flower. She had a warm, happy, indica stone. The bag appeal of the finished buds (indoor and out) was 9++.

The SSH had a lil smell in veg. It was 1 of 4 that I was growing. It had slightly thinner, lighter leaves with a lil more jagged serration. It seemed to stay a lil shorter and branchier than the other 3 (and they were branchy). In veg/early flower, he smelled like a skunky lil pot plant. At ~4/5 wks after the flip (maybe a wk before he started dribbling pollen) he started to STINK of incense/sandalwood/haze. By far the strongest smelling male that I've grown to date. The plant itself took on a very sativa appearance, with the leaves getting sliver thin, and stretching like a mo-fo. He smelled almost as strong as an equal sized/aged female :)

Putting all of the 'genetics' language on the side makes it easier to describe the offspring.

2 dogs, 1 brindle, 1 white with black spots.
The brindle is a poly hybrid [(brown dog x Blue) x (brown dog x Red)] (ssh)
The white dog is a hybrid (white dog x black dog) (spice)
Without knowing the parental lineage of the 2 dogs, it would be impossible to predict the offspring using 'genetic' rules. However if you got to know the dogs before they had the puppies (familiarizing yourself with their 'traits'), you would be able to see (traits from) both parents in each of the puppies. The puppies would range from exact copies of the white/black dog to exact copies of the brindle dog, with everything inbetween. It is POSSIBLE to unlock recessives, but I haven't seen it (with buds OR dogs, lol). IE: It would be possible to see a very 'Red' or 'Blue' dog from the offspring, even though they don't really appear in the parents. In practice, you will see 90% of the dogs/plants somewhere between the parents.

Keeping the dogs in mind, I can see traits of each parent in each offspring. Now as I grow some of my other crosses involving the same parents (Spice mom and SSH dad), I will start to see patterns that will tell me what the parents passed individually. I intend to start selecting females to breed with from those SuperSpices, and I plan on only using males that STINK. It has worked out for me so far. I'd like the plants to breed true for FUNK. :D
 
b, thanks for the good answer, understood. Rather than isolating trait I was envisaging that the F1 generation may have individuals that are similar to the mother.

Anyway, I read in a breeding debate that F contribute what and M intensity was DJShorts suggestion on parent selection.
 
B, like to discuss a breeder cross method that I think is widely used. The first cross between the two 'breeders' is to get a male which is then back-crossed to its mother (original female). Benefit is to hide genetics one cross when seed is inbred. If this is a method, it does explain how packs often have two distinct pheno's. A third pheno could occur when one parent is hybrid but this could also be a specialty cross :cool:
 
Hey johnstreet. I want to be clear that I'm by no means a breeder. I haven't even really done much selection past "ssh #1 and Spice were in the room long enough that they got crossed out to a bunch of stuff..." I'm growing less than 2 years, and I seeded my first plants ~50 weeks ago :) I have only grown out my crosses, not yet trying to 'work' or select from' the seedlines. After growing a bunch of 1 cross (SuperSpice = Spice x SSH), I have a feel for the plants that the seeds grow into. I intend to work the seeds toward plants that I've already seen (the last 'green' 'mergency, C, D, E from the first grow are all on this forum either in the Spice x ssh thread or the down below thread). However, if I saw a freak plant that I loved somewhere in my breeding project, I'd deffo separate her and try to stabilize what it is about her that I like (yield, smell, high, etc...).

Back crossing is a way to try to do that, but it isn't as simple as - Female A x Male 1 = MaleA1; A1 x fem A = AA1male; AA1 x fem A = AAA1, etc... The notion that we can flat out select for prospective female traits from male plants is a myth. It is a lazy way to try to achieve a difficult process (getting plants to breed true for your selected traits).

Here is the breeder 'chimera'(s) take on cubing.
http://www.thcfarmer.com/forums/f10/cubing-myth-chimera-81/#post4198

Here's a snipet on backcrossing from the breeding chapter I wrote for Jorge's most recent version of the bible.

Backcross Breeding –
A type of breeding that involves repeated crossing of progeny with one of the original parental genotypes; cannabis breeders most often cross progeny to the mother plant. This parent is known as the recurrent parent. The non-recurrent parent is called the donor parent. More widely, any time a generation is crossed to a previous generation, it is a form of backcross breeding. Backcross breeding has become one of the staple methods clandestine cannabis breeders use, mainly because it is a simple, rapid method when using greenhouses or grow
rooms, and requires only small populations. The principle goal of backcross breeding is to create a population of individuals derived mainly from the genetics of one single parent (the recurrent parent).

The donor parent is chosen based on a trait of interest that the recurrent parent lacks; the idea is to introgress this trait into the backcross population, such that the new population is comprised mainly of genetics from the recurrent parent, but also contains the genes responsible for the trait of interest from the donor parent.

The backcross method is a suitable scheme for adding new desirable traits to a mostly ideal, relatively true-breeding genotype. When embarking on a backcross breeding plan, the recurrent parent should be a highly acceptable or nearly ideal genotype (for example, an existing commercial cultivar or inbred line). The ideal traits considered for introgression into the new seed line should be simply inherited and easily scored for phenotype. The best donor parent must possess the desired trait, but should not be seriously deficient in other traits. Backcross line production is repeatable, if the same parents are used.

Backcross breeding is best used when adding simply inherited dominant traits that can easily be identified in the progeny of each generation (example 1). Recessive traits are more difficult to select for in backcross breeding, since their expression is masked by dominance in each backcross to the recurrent parent. An additional round of open pollination or sib-mating is needed after each backcross generation, to expose homozygous-recessive plants. Individuals showing the recessive condition are selected from F2 segregating generations and backcrossed to the recurrent parent (see example 2).

Example 1– Backcrossing: Incorporating a dominant trait

Step1– Recurrent Parent × Donor Parent
|
V
F1 Hybrid generation

Step 2 – Select desirable plants showing dominant trait, and hybridize selected plants to recurrent parent. The generation produced is denoted BC1 (some cannabis breeders break from botanical convention and denote this generation Bx1. BC1= Bx1).

Step 3 – Select plants from BC1 and hybridize with the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC2.

Step 4 – Select plants from BC2 and hybridize with the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC3.
.

Example 2 Backcrossing: Incorporating a recessive trait

Step1– Recurrent Parent × Donor Parent
|
V
F1 Hybrid generation

Step 2 – Select desirable plants, and create an F2 population via full sib-mating.

Step 3 – Select plants showing the desired recessive trait in the F2 generation, then hybridize selected F2-recessive plants to the recurrent parent. The generation produced is denoted BC1.

Step 3 – Select plants from BC1, and create a generation of F2 plants via sib-mating; the resulting generation can be denoted BC1F2

Step 4 – Select desirable BC1F2 plants showing the recessive condition, and hybridize with the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC2.

Step 5 – Select plants from BC2, and create an F2 population via sib-mating; denote the resulting generation BC2F2.

Step 6 – Select plants showing the recessive condition from the BC2F2 generation, and hybridize to the recurrent parent; the resulting generation is denoted BC3.

Step 7 – Grow out BC3, select and sib-mate the most ideal candidates to create an F2 population, where plants showing the recessive condition are then selected and used as a basis for a new inbred, or open-pollinated seed line.

This new generation created from the F2 is a population that consists of, on average, ~93.7% of genes from the recurrent parent, and only ~6.3% of genes leftover from the donor parent. Most importantly, one should note that since only homozygous-recessives were chosen for mating in the BC3F2 generation, the entire resulting BC3F3 generation is homozygous for the recessive trait, and breeds true for this recessive trait. Our new population meets our breeding objective. It is a population derived mainly from the genetics of the recurrent parent, yet breeds true for our introgressed recessive trait.


Backcross derived lines are expected to be well-adapted to the environment in which they will be grown, which is another reason backcrossing is often used by cannabis breeders who operate indoors. Indoor grow rooms are easily replicated all over the world, so the grower is able to grow the plants in a similar environment in which they were bred. Progeny therefore need less extensive field-testing by the breeder across a wide range of environments.

If two or more characters are to be introgressed into a new seed line, these would usually be tracked in separate backcross programs, and the individual products would be combined in a final set of crosses after the new populations have been created by backcrossing.

The backcross scheme has specific drawbacks, however. When the recurrent parent is not very true-breeding, the resulting backcross generations segregate, and many of the traits deemed desirable to the line fail to be reproduced reliably. Another limitation of the backcross is that the “improved” variety differs only slightly from the recurrent parent (e.g., one trait). If multiple traits are to be introgressed into the new population, other techniques such as inbreeding or recurrent selection may be more rewarding.

Hope that's a little more clear......
Respectfully,
-Chimera

I took A LOT from the last paragraph. Since I don't think that most of my (potential) parent stock is true breeding, I think that I am better just incrossing, and doing a recurrent selection from the 'previous' generation.

I wish all my friggen seedlings would grow so I can flip them and start popping these beans. :)
 
Very informative thread. The Early queen sounds like a great outdoor plant, I might have to give it a go. Just wondering if you have any experience with Earlyqueen X Haze? If you found the right pheno, it might finish up outdoors, and hopfully be gooey and potent. Im very interested in this one, Ill see if I can find them anywhere.

Great thread Barletta, beautiful pics.

Peace and love
Samara
 
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