Crossing mns strains..

Shanti's Nordle is Afghan S, Afghan Haze is "T"

Although Nevil was pretty careful about not just coming out and listing specific pedigree's of Shanti's products, his hint's were filled with detail that could be used to fill the gap.

Here, he explains where Nordle came from and why ASH is such a brilliant and useful cross by Shanti (without actually saying it :)
Notice how he described the AfgS x Sk1 as being the more potent of the 2 and tasting like a hashplant, exactly how Howard described Nordle. Then, suggesting it be combined with AfgT line plants to find throw backs (exactly what Shanti did in ASH).
Finally, he ends with the tongue in cheek question (that he already knows the answer too.)



I just decided. If I win Bud of the Month, I am getting a pack of ASH.
Lost my original pack Shanti gifted me in 2011 before I could run them.

Voting ends on the 13th :)

I haven't researched much about the afghans that went into these lines so maybe I'm wrong but I thought shanti said the Z8/AghanHaze cross had some potential because both sides had the same afghan. And I thought the Z series were cannatonic x Nordle

Hi All

to update as far as possible with this crossing. It only exists due to one plant surviving in the back of a room. There was a Z8 female plant that had been overlooked in a seed room and it got pollinated by the AH male. I put them on offer to the Auction site to allow members a chance to find something interesting if tested.Z8 was in the same series as z6 and z7 but was basically similar to these enriched strains ...since the z series was with AS male the same Afghan used for the AH male i thought the doubling up may have some merit to this seed offering. So hope that helps bring you up to speed. It is only a small handful of seed and one that will not be made intentionally again due to work demands currently. So was hoping to put it out to a few growers and hear back the news....all the best sb

Wait... that doesn't make sense! He says same AS male that went into AfghanHaze. Afghan haze is supposed to be HAZE C MALE x Afghan. Right?
 
PRIMAL∞HAZΣ;226480 said:
I haven't researched much about the afghans that went into these lines so maybe I'm wrong but I thought shanti said the Z8/AghanHaze cross had some potential because both sides had the same afghan. And I thought the Z series were cannatonic x Nordle



Wait... that doesn't make sense! He says same AS male that went into AfghanHaze. Afghan haze is supposed to be HAZE C MALE x Afghan. Right?
Hi PH,
He is saying that the "afghan" in the afg/sk is the same as the afghan in the afg/hz.
In that, I assume he may be generalizing as I have suspected Shanti's afg/hz is actually afgT/HzC and not afgS/hzC (or Nordle/HzC). It all comes down to if you think shanti has the Haze C male or not, and if you think Shanti could get better results with a nordle/HzC cross than he could from working the original afgT/HzC work he got from nevil.

Some of the AfgT and AfgS (ML) crosses with skunk went towards lemon. In particular AfgS. AfgT x Hz C also had haze lemonish phenos. It's well worth fishing in those lines.
. . .
N.
 
Crosses only have value if the offspring are superior to both the parental lines. The only way to test that is grow the crossed lines next to both the parental lines. That takes considerable work and data collection and lots of plants.

dj took those words from luther burbanks
actually a "recipe" i follow , being in my top 5 of do`s and dont`s


offspring has to be equal or better, otherwise there is no need for a cross - ask yourself: why are you crossing plant A to plant B , why is it, that you feel that there is room for improvement ; are you sure about your strain choices, did you expect something different; do you "see" your goal etc ...

by this, accidents like this wont happen, here an example of mating thai to affy, your goal should be something like "potent, ready within 8 or 9 weeks, indoor friendly growth, full of resin, big fat yields, no hermie issues, stratospheric sativa high, sweet anise chocolate smell and a fresh minty menthol taste"
but you end up with
"weak hay, ready in 19 weeks, 7 meters tall, internode spacing of 30 cms, nearly no visible resin, 1 calyx per internode meaning a yield of next to nothing, full on hermie, dull 1 dimensional short lived indica downer high/or lo, with hay smell and taste that reminds one of freshly puked feces"

when you do breeding and love it, such results arent a drawback - they aer the challenge, thats where you take luthers sentence and put it into work/reality
 
dj took those words from luther burbanks
actually a "recipe" i follow , being in my top 5 of do`s and dont`s

offspring has to be equal or better, otherwise there is no need for a cross - ask yourself: why are you crossing plant A to plant B , why is it, that you feel that there is room for improvement ; are you sure about your strain choices, did you expect something different; do you "see" your goal etc ...

by this, accidents like this wont happen, here an example of mating thai to affy, your goal should be something like "potent, ready within 8 or 9 weeks, indoor friendly growth, full of resin, big fat yields, no hermie issues, stratospheric sativa high, sweet anise chocolate smell and a fresh minty menthol taste"
but you end up with
"weak hay, ready in 19 weeks, 7 meters tall, internode spacing of 30 cms, nearly no visible resin, 1 calyx per internode meaning a yield of next to nothing, full on hermie, dull 1 dimensional short lived indica downer high/or lo, with hay smell and taste that reminds one of freshly puked feces"

when you do breeding and love it, such results arent a drawback - they aer the challenge, thats where you take luthers sentence and put it into work/reality

Hi Daren,

I read Cuzin Dave's post (the first reply in the thread) to be potentially discouraging to new growers considering their first crosses (like the OP). I am also pretty sure that the "quote" was not verbatim.

Dave said offspring had to be "superior." You say "equal or better." Which is it exactly that Burbank said?

Dave's post could be read by a newbie to suggest that if they didn't think they could improve on Shanti's work, they should not even try, and if they did try, they would have to invest "considerable work" to test and see if it was worth the effort. Even stating that they had to maintain original parent plants to do it right.

He never mentioned the intent of Burbank's quote, which was that to be considered "breeding" that crosses need to have specific goals and be tested against those goals.
Basic scientific method.
I corrected that in my post, like you are here.

I disagree with your suggestion that simply having goals will prevent negative results from occurring (weak hay for example.)
There is magic in selection based on visible traits, and crossing polyhybrid genepools (skunkxNLxhaze for example) from small populations often have unexpected alleles appear, even dominate.
Let's not even get into the question of whether the parents in question are F1's or something greater, and the differences that can have on the expression of dominant vs recessive traits in progeny.

I bought Rob Clark's Marijuana Botany in 1981 (I assume you have it), so I have had very specific goals for every cross I've made in the last 36 years. I performed the Thai x Affy cross you used for an example in 1982 (with great success) so your explaination is very familiar to me ;-)

I think you missed the points of my post.

In addition to encouraging people to actually try making seeds with specific goals in mind, I attempted to add value to Growstone's original questions by pointing out that:
  1. "Superior" is subjective
  2. Testing to confirm improvement from a cross need not be more difficult than simply growing the plants and smoking them. Preferably, smoke testing against the original mother, and good documentation on details of both grows.
  3. MNS lines are built on limited genetic inputs, so crossing between the lines can sometimes be more akin to filial crosses than outcrosses. There are however some unique opportunities in the portfolio for us.
  4. Improving a line is not the only goal someone might have for making a cross. Sometimes the goal is simply preservation ("equal", not "superior".)
  5. In a world of elite cuttings taking the place of strains, sometimes the best results can be entirely unexpected (Gorilla Glue #4 for example.) Happy accident.

I appreciate the reminder that Burbank was the source of that line, as it prompted me to try and find it sourced (I couldn't) but it was nice to revisit his legacy. I think I might have even used it (attributed) in my signature line at some point over the years on the web.

I like this quote from him:
"The secret of improved plant breeding, apart from scientific knowledge, is love." - Luther Burbank

I've loved this plant for almost 40 years, and I apply science to everything I do :)
In my post, I was simply trying to encourage people to make seeds and share their plans.

Have you got any MNS crosses planned for the next year?
Share them if you feel like it, I'd love to hear 'em!
 
Hi PH,
He is saying that the "afghan" in the afg/sk is the same as the afghan in the afg/hz.
In that, I assume he may be generalizing as I have suspected Shanti's afg/hz is actually afgT/HzC and not afgS/hzC (or Nordle/HzC). It all comes down to if you think shanti has the Haze C male or not, and if you think Shanti could get better results with a nordle/HzC cross than he could from working the original afgT/HzC work he got from nevil.

Right, that's my point. He is saying they are the same afghan. But you are saying it's afgT and afgS. But maybe when Shanti says same afghan he means the same line considering they are siblings. Doesn't really matter too much too me. I have Z8 and I know there are some strong effects and smells in them.

My recent interest in indicas spurs from scoring some new skunk and ortega. And also from trying bud from a solo bagseed grown from dispensary gorillaglue that is suprisingly strong and skunky and pretty damn pleasantly powerful. I thoroughly enjoy the strong sedative munchy fx. I try not to follow the hype too much, but if I had a chance to jump on some more gorilla beans I would.
 
Here's a couple quotes from Nevil I saved that should clear this up.

"Names don't mean much to me. Super Skunk, Ultra Skunk, Nordle. It's all AfgT x SK1 to me.
N."
"Your describing Super Skunk. Same mother as the Afghan Hz. Afghan T was a pretty special Maple Leaf. I called her the Skunk Archetype."

I would love to see the Afghan S × Skunk Nev talks about in the MNS lineup
 
I agree on Nevil, but the years have been less kind to him perhaps than Shanti and he must play the cards he has in his hand. He seems less free to take advantage of the change happening around us than Shanti, and I fear he may share his knowledge less freely going forward as he is forced to trade on it for a paycheck.

About getting the seeds while we can, that makes a lot of sense Reason.
None of us are getting any younger.
For Shanti and a lot of (us) old prohibition warriors, these days have to feel like the brink of vindication. So much has been lost, such terrible prices paid.
I have a hard time seeing Shanti walking away just as we stand at the brink of victory, but at the same time, these days must feel full of instability for the entrepreneur in Shanti, as the marketplace threaten to shift wildly with every new iteration of law in the States.
The US W.o.D. caused all this trouble, around the world, and what happens in the US right now has effects that are more like tsunamis than ripples to the rest of the world.

Shanti seems committed to keeping the old lines as they are in his statements recently, particularly his reply in THIS THREAD on female seeds.

At the same time, someone who's been around as long as you have has seen how things can change or be lost in the seed world, never to return.

So the conservative side, the voice of experience says preserve what you can.
The other side has to be excited about what might be on the horizon.

I never stop thinking about all the lines Shanti got from Nev that he never worked into an MNS product. The list must be pretty big. Not to mention what is going on in the rest of the world as old seed caches are being dusted off/thawed out and making their way into the hands of breeders around the world.

I hope that someday we all look back at the next 3 years (through a cloud of dreamy smoke) to realize we are living through a genetic renaissance for cannabis.

These may in fact be, the good old days!
I raise my bowl in salute to all who have been a part of getting us here and are committed to being a part of what happens next.

Cheers!
:)

So . . . what's on your short list of "must have" MNS seeds?



It's great to see a little activity around here. I went dark for quite a while and when I returned this place was a ghost town, Nevil had split and all hell had seemingly broken loose.

As far as 'must haves' I mean, I'm working my way towards (and have nearly) a pack or two of everything on the menu, haha. However, my list of top gets would be something to the affect of:

Master Kush Skunk
Nevil's Haze
Mango Haze
Norde
NL5 x Afghan
The Doors
Ortega
Medicine Man
La Nina
Black Widow
Afghan Haze

I mean, its difficult to force myself to stop typing, lol. Even things like Devil, SSH, ASH, NHS and G13 x Skunk are incredible lines worth a look through.

I couldn't agree more about the double edged sword we walk along the blade of currently. Many old heads have emerged with significant strains; Bodhi has been working with the 88g13hp male and absolutely killing it. Coastal Seeds brought back the pure NL#1 sire line and bred it to amazing cuts like Black Domina, The Puck (Skelly) Hashplant, and Romulan. Went from a market with no good pure indica to some really legendary crosses reemerging rather quickly. And after reading that mind-blowing response from Shanti that you linked me to it's clear that he's got his hands in a lot of pies and isn't going anywhere anytime soon.

Keep the good vibes rolling! Stay blessed brother.
 
i have do an open polenisation with a mksk and 4 g13sk daddys

and i have try this year some seeds of diesel cross with 4 mango hazed inbred daddys

but the bloom not already start i think the part of haze dominate to much

they have a lot of combo to do
 
If I were to be crossing mr nice strains, they would probably involve some that have less known about them. These would be like walkabout, spice, devil, and new skunk. I think there are real gems for breeding in these that cannot be found in any other seeds from anywhere.
 
Here's a couple quotes from Nevil I saved that should clear this up.

"Names don't mean much to me. Super Skunk, Ultra Skunk, Nordle. It's all AfgT x SK1 to me.
N."
"Your describing Super Skunk. Same mother as the Afghan Hz. Afghan T was a pretty special Maple Leaf. I called her the Skunk Archetype."

I would love to see the Afghan S × Skunk Nev talks about in the MNS lineup
After growing some Nordle my guess it's afgS x sk.
 
When breeding Skunks I used a very effective method. I'd spray the males with ethylene (it's the same hormone that comes off ripening fruit) a few times until they partially reversed. Enough to show me gland structure, resin production and smell.

If you want to talk about genetic bottlenecking, SK1 is a classic case. The best line that I got from Sam, was pretty bloody good. I would say that that was his crowning achievement. I separated 2 lines from the best single parent mating, and kept them appart. One line had Red labels and the other Blue. I kept doing single parent matings using the above mentioned tek. The plan was to put them back together and then give them out. I'm sure that SB has used these wisely.
N

I think he is describing Shit
 
Hey blackberry,
Whats makes you guess nordle is afghan S x skunk?
Would love to hear details of your grow.

Peace, Podg
 
Well, some Nordles can be very strong and overall the productivity is not very high, more like medium (and a bit leafy).
Afgt x sk was famous for the productivity and Nevil said afgSsk was not a good producer.
 
Did you get many terps/smells of your grow? I also hear she is a big resin producer. Did you find any of these in your grow?
I was also wondering what your sample size was.

The productivity and being leafy could also be accounted to the nordle is an ibl of super skunk.

Take it easy,
Podg
 
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Good resin producer, smell of berries and hash, not cheese or strange smells (that is what I remember, my last Nordle grow was more than a year ago).
Plants are very uniform, I have growed 6 or 7 females and flowered each one multiple times (more than 3), I probably could not tell which clone is from which mother just by looking or smelling.
Look a very good line to make hashish.
 
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"There was an article in HighTimes on him in the cannabis castle called "The King of Cannabis" telling his whole story.
It contained a pic of him opening envelopes of seed orders containing US cash. That pic is what put the DEA on his trail and sent him on the run from the Netherlands.
"

Almost bankrupted High Times also, since they went after they grow shop vendors that bought ads in their magazine. It also killed a magazine in the UK.
 
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