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-   -   Breeding techniques (https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breeders-support-information/5559-breeding-techniques.html)

Nevil 12-24-2010 06:52 AM

Breeding techniques
 
People keep asking me questions relating to breeding techniques (teks). It's an important subject worthy of a special thread. There are a number of useful breeders on the forum, this could be educational for us all.
N.

itsbenfun 12-24-2010 07:06 AM

Could we start with inbreeding? I think this is most important to all collectors and breeders alike. I personally am thinking with my "MR NICE" Early Queens growing all seeds and doing an open pollenation for seed stock. Is this a wise decision for the common grower/breeder to do with a pack of your seeds?

brock1 12-24-2010 07:21 AM

this should be a great thread Nevil. let hope people use there search to find the section.;) lets start with something simple though. that way everyone can read something practical to them from the start and it can get technical later for the more advanced breeders. i think it will be easier for everyone to follow this way instead off novice breeders getting lost in the fort few posts & having to ask question over and over again. thank for this thread i think it will be really useful for people. its like a early Christmas present i like lots would off payed for this info in a book.:)

Nevil 12-24-2010 08:18 AM

1:1 matings is something I'd like to address. People suggest that I'm creating a bottleneck and it's true. A bottleneck of quality. Seeds are usually produced by using two parents. With a 1:1 mating you know which ones they were.

As a seed breeder, the job as I see it is to ensure that the customer has the highest chance of producing a keeper pheno, whilst at the same time keeping the median a high standard. Every packet should produce top shelf plants. These guys who say you have to buy numerous packets of seed to get a keeper, crack me up. The job is not to save the gene pool, but to satisfy the guy who gave you the money. Few people want to give you money to save the genepool (but I am taking donations) Haha!
If I'm making Early Skunk and the mother EP has been chosen. Which Skunk male fathers the seeds does make a difference. Single progeny tested males is your best guarantee of quality and crop uniformity.

Chimera 12-24-2010 08:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 79853)
The job is not to save the gene pool, but to satisfy the guy who gave you the money.

Really? Wow. Just simply wow.

So who's job is it, other than the people who propagate the species, to protect this incredibly valuable genetic resource?

Stunned Nevil, really.

-Chimera

waverunner_21 12-24-2010 08:33 AM

just interested but what can we do to protect the gene pool other than make crosses? it may not be the job but by making a cross arnt you protecting the genetics

waverunner_21 12-24-2010 08:37 AM

i got a q when i find that perfect male, how can a keep him with out pollinating everything by mistake, do small carbon filters filter pollen???

Chimera 12-24-2010 08:43 AM

While the individual genes may live on, unique gene combinations are lost with every successive 1:1 or low N population breeding scheme.

The only real preservation strategy, and responsible step (in the sense of preservation) is to open pollinate as many individuals from the original population as possible.

From there selections can be made and used for any other type of breeding scheme be it hybridization or within-line breeding, but the original pool, and all the alleles available in the initial population are still available for further selection in the future.

Most of the original unique populations (landraces or ancestral cultivars) have unfortunately been extremely bottle-necked and many valuable alleles have been eliminated, because the early breeders who worked with the species didn' realize that cannabis is an outcrosser and has different breeding requirements than most flower species.

Japanfreak 12-24-2010 08:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 79853)
The job is not to save the gene pool, but to satisfy the guy who gave you the money.

Outside of that...do you actually believe you are hurting the gene pool?

REDEYE_420 12-24-2010 09:15 AM

Great thread idea!
 
I'll be following this thread carefully.

P.S occasionally I might ask the odd dumb question or two. ;)

Azra'eil 12-24-2010 09:33 AM

....................................

funkfarmer 12-24-2010 09:44 AM

this looks like it could be a long and interesting one






:D

waverunner_21 12-24-2010 10:13 AM

So chimera and nevil where does this leave hobby breeders? If you are the type of person that wants to play around with breeding, but dont have the space or the seeds to pop hundreds of seeds to find perfect perfect parents, would we be better off using open pollination using multiple males, or 1 on 1 at the start of a project?

Bambi 12-24-2010 10:21 AM

A gift:
 
1 Attachment(s)
Sweet mate'' - a thoughtful xmas gift yes,!

I must say i like your views on giving what the customer wants/needs, if a seedbank tried to explain to me i need more than a pkt of seeds to find a keeper etc etc, then yeah id find this most amuzing also'

Giving a customer what they want in a plant is exactly how i like to do things so far,it makes a person become much more creative, to make the best of the best is the attitude i like use, like many others im sure,!

and yeah, im sure il be back with questions upon questioned questions that inturn probably create many more questions for yourself aswel''

cheers'
bam.

Ouchie 12-24-2010 10:37 AM

I think Nevil and Shantibaba compliment each other perfectly as breeders. I think where one of them lacks in certain areas, the other picks it up in spades. Between the two of them, I don't think you'll find a better case of preserving worthwhile cannabis genetics. That's just my take on it, it's called destiny, shit happens for a reason. I'm more than happy with Neville gearing his work on making sure I have a worthwhile pheno in my pack. I'm also equally pleased with the scale and sheer love of the plant Shanti operates under. If you call turning normal plants into the Michael Jordan, Michael Phelps, so on and so forth of weed plants bottlenecking, be my guest. I choose to call them my personal heroes. If you think you could have done or could do a better job, get to it! I'll support anyone who has half the gull either of them had and still have.

Ouchie 12-24-2010 10:46 AM

Terence Mckenna - Optimism and Complexity

This video to me directly relates to this thread. Complexity leads to more complexity, it's how our universe works! Maybe this video will mean something to you.

YouTube - Terence Mckenna - Optimism and Complexity

Enjoy friends!

"Upon a platform of previously achieved complexity, new complexities can be achieved."

Nevil 12-24-2010 11:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chimera (Post 79855)
Really? Wow. Just simply wow.

So who's job is it, other than the people who propagate the species, to protect this incredibly valuable genetic resource?

Stunned Nevil, really.

-Chimera

I'm glad you're here Chimera. You can tell us how you go about things. I thought that you were the fem guy, but maybe you do other things to protect this incredibly valuable genetic resource. I'm all ears.
N.

nOpe 12-24-2010 11:36 AM

Nice view on evolution ouchie, thanks for the link. Don't understand how it translates into breeding... do you mean that related to crossing hybrids increasing the complexity or something?

kashrocks 12-24-2010 11:41 AM

Growing while preserving...
 
My last flowering room contained 7 varieties for a total of 30 plants: EP/Sk, MK/Sk, G-Spot, SwB, MH, LN and NH.
I had just selected from the G-Spot the two best females and three best males from 30 seeds (the usual number for me).
I crossed the three G-Spot males to each females in the room.
In the end I have 6 interbred lines of G-Spot and 18 hybrid lines for futur inspection.

Peace.

K.

b0b_b1tch1n 12-24-2010 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chimera (Post 79858)
While the individual genes may live on, unique gene combinations are lost with every successive 1:1 or low N population breeding scheme.

The only real preservation strategy, and responsible step (in the sense of preservation) is to open pollinate as many individuals from the original population as possible.

From there selections can be made and used for any other type of breeding scheme be it hybridization or within-line breeding, but the original pool, and all the alleles available in the initial population are still available for further selection in the future.

Most of the original unique populations (landraces or ancestral cultivars) have unfortunately been extremely bottle-necked and many valuable alleles have been eliminated, because the early breeders who worked with the species didn' realize that cannabis is an outcrosser and has different breeding requirements than most flower species.

i like nevil's way of looking at it , call it bottlenecking or whatever you want , but when i see nevil and shanti's results i call it breeding out the bad traits and supplying each and everyone of us with only the best , i see nothing wrong with loosing some "unique gene combinations" if it is done by someone of nevil or shanti's qualifications , this way i know im getting the best that a certain plant/strain has to offer and none of the bad

i do understand what your trying to say though Chimera and have nothing but respect

peace

Nevil 12-24-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Most of the original unique populations (landraces or ancestral cultivars) have unfortunately been extremely bottle-necked and many valuable alleles have been eliminated, because the early breeders who worked with the species didn' realize that cannabis is an outcrosser and has different breeding requirements than most flower species.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, (of snazzelberries and such like) we find that the dominant genetics of the top commercial varieties are ALL polyhybrids, so where are we going with this? No doubt Chimera is selling pure open pollinated landraces, instead of feminised polyhybrids like the rest of those money-grubbers. I don't know, I've been out of things for a while.
N.

Cabron 12-24-2010 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 79886)
Meanwhile, back in the real world, (of snazzelberries and such like) we find that the dominant genetics of the top commercial varieties are ALL polyhybrids, so where are we going with this? No doubt Chimera is selling pure open pollinated landraces, instead of feminised polyhybrids like the rest of those money-grubbers. I don't know, I've been out of things for a while.
N.




:D:D:D

This going to be fun!!
It's easy to point the ethical finger
But you'd better have your duckies in a nice neat row first..

Otherwise you're gonna get called out for BS!

Cabron 12-24-2010 12:41 PM

In the real real world,,we are not going to save the fucking gene pool..
That is done by civilizations in specific geographic locations...

Example..Jamaica is already doomed! You have tourists already spreading
Dutch polluted genetics throughout the countryside to the locals.
There is most likely no landrace Jamaican strain left....it's polluted.

Is it our fault? Nope,the locals didn't have the forethought to maintain
purity...


Will their future hybrids acclimate, and over generations become yet again another
type of landrace? yeah but it's going to take awhile...
But you'll continue to have more feral genetics entered into the fray as the new generation
growers there are clueless as to maintaining purity.


What we can do as Breeders is focus on traits and make those available
with consistency to those paying the coin for them...nothing more..


It's really quite simple and a straightforward venture,,only made to look very
complicated as it's practice is masqueraded with principals and scientific terms that are tossed around and intimidate the laymen..

My advice to the novice is, it's best just to get your hands dirty and start w/o worrying about some silly failure...:cool:



Use your eye,your intuition,and take notes on results...
Some people simply "have it" it's hard to describe...

Either you are a guitarist,a successful painter,artist,,singer,etc...or you are not!

It's a spiritual gift ,a connection with a species,........symbiotic in nature.
A successful breeder just knows what plants to select to work together,almost
like a whisper in your ear from another place occurs,it comes natural.

You will never know you have this gift unless you simply pursue it...


The common sense applied with regards to structure and potency,Terpenes etc
when focusing on expected goals and results,goes w/o saying.

ortega_seeker 12-24-2010 01:24 PM

somewhere deep in the PNW hyb must be staring at this thread in pure bliss... his Xmas wish and a day early!!

ortega_seeker 12-24-2010 01:44 PM

call me old fashioned but wouldn't you be more likely to end up with a better ibl by using open pollinating multiple parents each generation and focusing on culling non desireable genotypes rather than selecting only the two very best? Takes longer but at the end of the day you have a seedline composed primarily of desireable allelles and desireable combinations of allelles rather than one that has thrown away alot of desireable alleles and likely carried along a bunch of unwanted baggage.

Nevil 12-24-2010 01:47 PM

Quote:

now where do you go from here if you want to stabilize one of those phenos?
That's a good question Coop. Often choosing another hybrid as a mate that has a duplication of the desired type in the pedigree, but in other respects is an outcross, is the best route ie SSH MH NH CM to name a few off the top of my head. I'd say that most of the phenos that you'd like to stabilise, are the way they are because of some degree of hybrid vigour. Sibling matings lead to greater uniformity in the direction of the selection criteria, but rarely do they compare favourably with the original hybrid as a strain
1:1 matings with pure strains is the quickest way to failure or success. If all you do is one male to one female each generation, you will fuck it up. I'd always do 6 or more different combinations of siblings 1:1 as a backup. I've had to back trace more than a couple of times. Sometimes the quality clearly comes from one specific plant. It pays to inbreed to that plant with different parents before moving on to further sibling matings. It help to isolate these specific plants if the matings are 1:1
The fact is, that working with open pollinated lines is much more of a numbers game. Great if you have a good climate and a number of hectares to work with.
Back in the olden days, people I sold seeds to mostly were growers who were very limited as to how many plants they could grow. Every plant counted, they had to be good. A lot of work went into making the best 1:1 matings with predictable high quality results.
I also gave breeders plenty to work with. G13 Haze was a 1:1 mating as were most of the other varieties I sold. These lines are the building blocks of most breeders catalogues. Those most vocal in their criticism of my methods would often have nothing left to work with if their lines made up of my strains disappeared from their collections. Go figure!
N.

dr Rockster 12-24-2010 02:21 PM

Great post Cabron, that really resonates with me.

I don't believe the 'Dutch' cannabis gene pool, by which I mean the one most growers draw from is a threat to the cannabis genome, even fems do no harm as they do not pollute the population by virtue of their genetic status, ok, S1's are used in crosses but their genes don't get back to their original source and pollute them unlike as you properly mentioned, Jamaica, a classic example as we now now see dread locked keepers of hard to get to hill top gardens on Youtube yammering on about AK farking 47, White Widow and all the usual suspects.

But ya can't blame the farmer, he's trying to get food for for his childrens table and he's not Gregor Mendel and may well like a bit of variety in his garden.

Of course I agree with Chimera about open pollination to preserve all potentially desireable alleles within a given population but also don't disagree
with Nev vis a vie single males being used in crosses.

People go on about genetics bottlenecks being undesirable and certainly in the natural world we know this to be true. Take for example the Cheetah in which it has been estimated by geneticists that they were once down to a population was down to a few individuals, maybe a couple of family groups and as a result they are severely inbred and their sperm has about 10% of the motility/viability as that of the domestic cat.

So inbred you can take a skin graft of any Cheetah on the planet and graft it onto any other and it will not reject as it's virtually genetically identical so spare a thought for the Cheetah, huh?

But as regards cannabis, using a single male, if it carries the alleles you want it'll do so to the exclusion of others but that shouldn't be a problem as severely bottlenecked cannabis grows just as well as any. In nature by bottle necking you might unconsciously dial out alleles relating to resistance to insect predation and potentially harmful pathogens but in our HPS nicely vented environment we have very few natural obstacles to contend with bar spidermite, botyritis, pythium, fungus gnats and maybe a few other nasties but they are held in check by a good growing environment so are not really a threat to a well managed garden.

I'm growing plants derived from a single clone and they look as healthy and happy as any I've ever grown so I think the concept of the single male producing a harmful bottleneck(with respect to growing cannabis indoors in a favourable environment) is totally erroneous.

Sure, open pollinate 2 separate plant populations to preserve the combined genetic information but from within that I'm sure you can dial out portions of it and focus on your breeding goal whatever that may be without somehow compromising the integrity of the remaining alleles you are working with.

Just my 2p:)

waverunner_21 12-24-2010 02:22 PM

YouTube - T.H.SEEDS Amsterdam Feminized, Cannabis Breeding, Growing by AdventuresInEurope.com

is that what your getting at cabron, theres a bit in there about Jamaica and how it has lost it landraces

also found this, it relates to keeping males on a small scale, looks very useful for keeping pollen from getting to the plants you dont want if you want to breed but don't have castle or a warehouse.

DIY JLP's Male Isolation Chamber - THCfarmer

budding grower 12-24-2010 03:03 PM

just wanted to post in a historic thread. Am reading with great interest, I have only ever made 3 crosses and I couldn't help but notice the plants were as good or sometimes better than seeds i had spent a pretty penny on.


Quote:

Jamaica, a classic example as we now now see dread locked keepers of hard to get to hill top gardens on Youtube yammering on about AK farking 47, White Widow and all the usual suspects.
thats down to dumb white tourists, yep the dutch gene pool is no threat, we've seen fems pollute many grows online.... genetic status be damned.

North 12-24-2010 03:14 PM

Nev, what do you think of this strategy? never mind the "auto" part...just as a breeding scheme in general?

A good Friend of mine posted this up and is what he's been doing for years now as an outdoor practice. his results have been impressive.


Recurrent Selection
Demarcation of Auto-Flowering Plants to a New Environment “Climate Zone”
Recurrent Selection

Recurrent Selection is a powerful tool used to increase any trait selected for, above the parent lines used. I think it was first purposed in 1844.And it has been refined over the years till the late 1940s went it fell out of use. WHY? When most crops Had been improved with Recurrent Selection. Plant breeders used others plant-breeding tools to improve after they had used Recurrent Selection. Also do to the loss of genetically diverse groups to use as recurrent stock. It is still used to day by modern plant breeders.

One of its uses is to demarcate of plant specie to a new environment “climate zones”. Allowing for crop production in places not possible before. This method can greatly increase any characteristics selected for. Above all parent strains used (as in) higher yielding, higher THC levels than all parent lines. There are so many vegetable and grain crops that where improved with this method, a list of them is to long to post.

Experiment in Recurrent Selection plant breeding.
All strains must be 100% auto-flowering. Selecting strains that have high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
You need 10 foundation strains that are diverse as possible from each other.
You need to germinate enough seeds to have 10 NICE plants from each strain.
Always keep enough seed put back incases the experiment fails. So you can re-create if need be.

First Cycle (P1)
Planting 10 plants from each of the10 strain into a block “100 plant breeding block”
You want to give them all an equal chance of survival.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother sister cross’s. If all plants lived and crossed there would be 90 hybrids and 10 brother-sisters cross’s possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (40 plants max). The actual number of plants that survive will be much less. Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Second Cycle (F1)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the First cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s are possible.
You keep seeds from the best performing (20 plants max). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Third Cycle (F2)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Second cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (10 plants max). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Forth Cycle (F3)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Third cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Fifth Cycle (F4)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Forth cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Sixths Cycle (F5) “Line breeding”
Each plant is a Family Line seed from the Fifth cycle
Each Family Line gets its on block. You will need to have 5 blocks far away from each other. You need to germinate enough seeds to have 100 plants from each plant.
All possible intercrosses are made. Remove (kill) any and all off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

NOTE; {Short cut} To keep from growing out 500 plants and needing to find a place for 5 blocks far away from each other. You can do a progeny test on each of the 5 lines. By growing out 20 plant from each line And picking the Family Line that produce the most on type offspring. Then do the Sixths Cycle (F5) from only that one Family Line progeny tested.

Seventh Cycle F6 “Bulk breeding”
Grow at lest 100 plants.
Only remove off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Make 10,000’s Seeds

They are ready for release to farmers.
And each Cycle would be release as an improved line.

Greezzy Guy 12-24-2010 03:26 PM

My 2 cents
 
When breeding anything, a goal has to be in mind, its never just Willy Nilly!!

If we are talking gene pool as far as breeding parents? or as the retail product?

Because the 2 most homogeneous, parents,whether inbreed,or from P1s from the same geographical area , but with totally different structure, in any breeding project , to create a true 100% real hybrid,The P1s have to be as homogeneous, for any gene, A true breeder.

Then and only then can you really see what a cross is all about.

Your best Moms, and Dads, will never have the same vigor as your F1s, If they do your parents are probably not true breeders.

To be considered Heirloom which is what true breeding plants are, Heirloom, is a plant that breeds its endogenous traits, in an open pollination situation,breed homogeneously no matter what.

Yes inbreeding is by far worse then finding a totally different plant, that also has homogeneous breeding traits that look alike.

But with this plant that most here are talking about, are not breed like my heirloom vegies, are, out in the open for the world to see.

I breed tomatoes/cucumbers,pumpkins/strawberries, with out having to inbreed,But my gene pool is alot more free to get then cannabis.

So to beat anyone up when it comes to breeding cannabis , with its limitations, IS just EGO shmeego BS.

Take it all in and absorb all info you can get , try it for your self , dont ever just trust anyone , do your own trial and error .

But yes True breeding needs to be from 2 P1s that Heirloom /homogeneous plant, well at least as close as you can get with what you have to work with.

Its not like any of us can call the old FDA an order 200 pounds of cannabis seeds!! can we? I can do that with tomato seeds!

So a little latitude, in this area concerning this plant needs to be taking LOL

But i am just saying

dr Rockster 12-24-2010 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by coop (Post 79915)
i would like to ask another question.

Whats the difference in an f1 hybrid if you use opposite sex's in the crossing?

i.e male sativa x female indica as opposed to female sativa x male indica.

i guess the most confusing thing is the lack of information about the male half of the species.

No difference according to the Hardy-Weinberg principle.

Male or female,If they are carrying the same genetic info the resultant progeny will be the same, so you can cross Afghan M x Haze F or Afghan F x Haze M and the result should be the same as far as I know?

Hardy

Greezzy Guy 12-24-2010 05:16 PM

my 2 cents
 
Depends on what you have/ are after in your project.

I find the male gene supplies , most all Dominate structural genes, whether DD, or dd dose not matter, and all his moms dominate recessive, whether P1s or F3s., if its dominate the male passes it I find..

What i find also is this.

The mom usually passes the adornments,that are dominate recessive (color,smell,taste,(dd) ). which usually attract themselves to DD/dd structural traits.

Dominates attract all dominates whether recessive dominate or dominate dominate ,
and recessive attract all recessive whether dominate recessive or just recessive. A structural dominate/dominate gene,will attract a homozygous gene before it will attract heterozygous.

So if lets say P1 mom passes the berry/peppery (dd,dd)flavor which is attracted to the cleft serrated sun leaf trait,(wink wink)which is (DD,DD),but she her self is asymmetric/decusate(dd,dd) which is attracted to the hay/grass smell(DD,DD)if you want the peppery/berry flavor, you will need a male that is (DD,DD) for the cleft serrated sun leaf, which is attracted to the whorled,structure which is (DD,DD)but if you want the hay/grass smell you will need to pick a male that is asymmetric/decusate(dd,dd)

But harder to do the reverse because the male gene that is passed,if its the asymmetric/decusate(dd,dd) donor..it will be really hard to get it out in the same ratio, but can be done just be harder.

The male side of it all is what stays in the gene mix, its harder to suppress unwanted traits passed from the dads ,side. unless the Moms dad was just a weak dude, LOL

But i am just saying, certain adornment traits that are attracted to structure,are easier to find via the male even tho the female passes those traits , the male seems to make those adornments louder/brighter/more pronounced.

What about you guys?My dads usually make better daughters and sons then my moms, my Moms just seem to accent my dads, Bu then again My moms could just suck LOL

Japanfreak 12-24-2010 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 79853)
The job is not to save the gene pool, but to satisfy the guy who gave you the money.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanfreak (Post 79859)
Outside of that...do you actually believe you are hurting the gene pool?

You probably didn't answer my question because your opinion hasn't changed of me ;)

But i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, I think you're just trying to act your version of "cool" by talking like a big man but deep down don't actually believe you are doing any damage to the gene pool, but if you really think you are doing damage than you are a wanker. So which is it?

Fucking sad that somebody would say that and people would applaud it but the sad reality is that people are selfish and cheap. Maybe if seeds prices were dropped to like $10 people wouldn't mind going through 10 seeds to find a keeper, I certainly don't mind.

Nevil 12-24-2010 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by North (Post 79924)
Nev, what do you think of this strategy? never mind the "auto" part...just as a breeding scheme in general?

A good Friend of mine posted this up and is what he's been doing for years now as an outdoor practice. his results have been impressive.


Recurrent Selection
Demarcation of Auto-Flowering Plants to a New Environment “Climate Zone”
Recurrent Selection

Recurrent Selection is a powerful tool used to increase any trait selected for, above the parent lines used. I think it was first purposed in 1844.And it has been refined over the years till the late 1940s went it fell out of use. WHY? When most crops Had been improved with Recurrent Selection. Plant breeders used others plant-breeding tools to improve after they had used Recurrent Selection. Also do to the loss of genetically diverse groups to use as recurrent stock. It is still used to day by modern plant breeders.

One of its uses is to demarcate of plant specie to a new environment “climate zones”. Allowing for crop production in places not possible before. This method can greatly increase any characteristics selected for. Above all parent strains used (as in) higher yielding, higher THC levels than all parent lines. There are so many vegetable and grain crops that where improved with this method, a list of them is to long to post.

Experiment in Recurrent Selection plant breeding.
All strains must be 100% auto-flowering. Selecting strains that have high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
You need 10 foundation strains that are diverse as possible from each other.
You need to germinate enough seeds to have 10 NICE plants from each strain.
Always keep enough seed put back incases the experiment fails. So you can re-create if need be.

First Cycle (P1)
Planting 10 plants from each of the10 strain into a block “100 plant breeding block”
You want to give them all an equal chance of survival.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother sister cross’s. If all plants lived and crossed there would be 90 hybrids and 10 brother-sisters cross’s possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (40 plants max). The actual number of plants that survive will be much less. Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Second Cycle (F1)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the First cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s are possible.
You keep seeds from the best performing (20 plants max). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Third Cycle (F2)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Second cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (10 plants max). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Forth Cycle (F3)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Third cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Fifth Cycle (F4)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Forth cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Sixths Cycle (F5) “Line breeding”
Each plant is a Family Line seed from the Fifth cycle
Each Family Line gets its on block. You will need to have 5 blocks far away from each other. You need to germinate enough seeds to have 100 plants from each plant.
All possible intercrosses are made. Remove (kill) any and all off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

NOTE; {Short cut} To keep from growing out 500 plants and needing to find a place for 5 blocks far away from each other. You can do a progeny test on each of the 5 lines. By growing out 20 plant from each line And picking the Family Line that produce the most on type offspring. Then do the Sixths Cycle (F5) from only that one Family Line progeny tested.

Seventh Cycle F6 “Bulk breeding”
Grow at lest 100 plants.
Only remove off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Make 10,000’s Seeds

They are ready for release to farmers.
And each Cycle would be release as an improved line.

There are a few flaws in the plan. I a 100 plant plot, 50 of them are going to be male. Selecting 40 females out of 50 isn't much of a selection. He states that "The actual number of plants that survive will be much less", but he is keeping seed from the 40 best females, while at the same time selecting for "high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want)"
He's kept practically everything and open pollinated with everything. Where's the selection?

Second Cycle. He starts again with a 100 plants. What, 2.5 seeds from each of the 40 selected mothers? What is the probability of each mother producing a daughter?
For the first time he culls 50% of the females, but takes a step back again by using most of the males. I wouldn't expect too many mutations.

Third cycle. Presumably he starts with 5 or so seeds from each mother and culls about half of the females, again using most of the males, of which all were fathers unknown and keeps 10 females.

Fourth and fifth cycle are a repeat cull 50% 0f the females each time, but with little male selection.

The guy is an armchair breeder who has wasted 5 years on a bunch of seeds with unknown parentage. Many of the potentially good combinations were lost due to lack of numbers.

The whole plan sounds a bit "Plastiki" to me. Repeating words like "open pollinated" and repeating phases like "while at the same time selecting for "high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want)", strikes me as glib. Paying lip service to something is not the same as doing it.

I'd suggest that your friend skip the first 5 years of his plan and go straight to his short cut after he has decided what he likes from the many lines available today.

If you friend has impressive weed, I'd say it's because he can choose from 5 crops of 100 plants in different locations and not because his plan has much merit.

I could be wrong, but somehow the story seems a bit, ... contrived.
N.

british_hempire 12-24-2010 09:55 PM

I don't understand the hostility here, I get what Nevil was saying, that customer satisfaction was important, he wasn't in the business of preservation he was in the business of providing seeds that would definitely produce worthwhile plants.

I've grown plenty of heirloom open pollinated landraces and it's hard to find worthwhile plants suitable for the average indoor grower.

You people criticising Nev here over this issue aren't looking at things with a real-world perspective, but an idealised one. People wanted seeds that produced plants that were productive with their grow resources, Nev gave them that. Maybe it would have been good in the long term is he had also worked on preservation projects but come on, don't be so harsh with the criticism because he didn't, he did enough good work that we can forgive him that. I struggle to think of examples of preservation projects to be honest, sure people have kept things alive from the 70s but a hell of a lot has been lost and that's largely the fault of the US govt. Where did the Mexican genepool go? It was sprayed with Paraquat till it was gone. What happened to the Thai genepool? They shot tens of thousands of farmers and violently eradicated it.

Find me a good Thai these days? I haven't seen or heard of one in a long time, Dalat caused a fuss a few years ago but wasn't all that good, there hasn't been anything Thai derived on the market that was much good for a long time, Thai-tanic was okay but too Skunky, Juicy Fruit was a fruity commercial yielder, DP were going to release a pure Thai but never did, SSSC had the legendary Durban-Thai Highflyer but that's lost now. The original classic Thais are gone, dead, extinct, lost for good, all we have left are fragments, mostly hybrid fragments - the 70s sats the Aussie blokes are keeping going like OMS and MM, and the Haze parents Shanti still has.

You guys don't criticise DJ Short for not preserving the Thais that went into his work so why criticise Nevil for similar things? I'm sure Nev would have loved to have been able to preserve the Haze in pure form, he tried to but incrossing brought out depression and catpiss predominance, he did the best he could with the mere handful of Haze plants he had to work with. Remember, by the time Nev began serious breeding work in the mid 80s it was already too late to preserve anything from Mexico, Thailand, Hawaii etc as they had suffered the destruction of their genepools by 1982.

If Nev thought there were still original classic Thais to be had in Thailand, don't you think he woul dhave been there to find them? He knows there is bugger all left and the best chance of finding fragments of what once was is in Haze and some old Aussie lines.

Sad to say it, but we are largely 30 years too late to start preserving things. There are still patches of largely untouched landraces left but they are in hard to reach places, many of them warstruck, violent and dangerous. Because of wars and unrest, places like Burma, New Guinea, Ceylon and Central Africa have been off limits for decades, in those places it is to be hoped that special landraces survive as they never experienced the US-backed eradication efforts that Mexico, Thailand, Hawaii, Colombia etc experienced.

joshuahazen 12-24-2010 11:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 79853)
1:1 matings is something I'd like to address. People suggest that I'm creating a bottleneck and it's true. A bottleneck of quality. Seeds are usually produced by using two parents. With a 1:1 mating you know which ones they were.

Hi Nevil, Thank you for starting this thread. I was wondering, What is a 1:1 Mating?

Greezzy Guy 12-24-2010 11:28 PM

hey
 
Low number breeding,1:1

Which creates a micro diversity loss in certain genes,

joshuahazen 12-24-2010 11:43 PM

1:1 breeding, does that mean like using 1male:1female?

Nevil 12-24-2010 11:48 PM

Quote:

What is a 1:1 Mating?
Single parent matings ie; one male one female. Excepting selfed plants, all matings have 2 parents. In a 1:1 mating you only use one male, preferably progeny tested. I prefer the seeds from the best progeny tested male rather than seeds that come from a mixed batch of males prior to testing. Only one can be the best.
N.


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