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  #31  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:26 PM
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Default My 2 cents

When breeding anything, a goal has to be in mind, its never just Willy Nilly!!

If we are talking gene pool as far as breeding parents? or as the retail product?

Because the 2 most homogeneous, parents,whether inbreed,or from P1s from the same geographical area , but with totally different structure, in any breeding project , to create a true 100% real hybrid,The P1s have to be as homogeneous, for any gene, A true breeder.

Then and only then can you really see what a cross is all about.

Your best Moms, and Dads, will never have the same vigor as your F1s, If they do your parents are probably not true breeders.

To be considered Heirloom which is what true breeding plants are, Heirloom, is a plant that breeds its endogenous traits, in an open pollination situation,breed homogeneously no matter what.

Yes inbreeding is by far worse then finding a totally different plant, that also has homogeneous breeding traits that look alike.

But with this plant that most here are talking about, are not breed like my heirloom vegies, are, out in the open for the world to see.

I breed tomatoes/cucumbers,pumpkins/strawberries, with out having to inbreed,But my gene pool is alot more free to get then cannabis.

So to beat anyone up when it comes to breeding cannabis , with its limitations, IS just EGO shmeego BS.

Take it all in and absorb all info you can get , try it for your self , dont ever just trust anyone , do your own trial and error .

But yes True breeding needs to be from 2 P1s that Heirloom /homogeneous plant, well at least as close as you can get with what you have to work with.

Its not like any of us can call the old FDA an order 200 pounds of cannabis seeds!! can we? I can do that with tomato seeds!

So a little latitude, in this area concerning this plant needs to be taking LOL

But i am just saying
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  #32  
Old 12-24-2010, 03:47 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by coop View Post
i would like to ask another question.

Whats the difference in an f1 hybrid if you use opposite sex's in the crossing?

i.e male sativa x female indica as opposed to female sativa x male indica.

i guess the most confusing thing is the lack of information about the male half of the species.
No difference according to the Hardy-Weinberg principle.

Male or female,If they are carrying the same genetic info the resultant progeny will be the same, so you can cross Afghan M x Haze F or Afghan F x Haze M and the result should be the same as far as I know?

Hardy
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  #33  
Old 12-24-2010, 05:16 PM
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Default my 2 cents

Depends on what you have/ are after in your project.

I find the male gene supplies , most all Dominate structural genes, whether DD, or dd dose not matter, and all his moms dominate recessive, whether P1s or F3s., if its dominate the male passes it I find..

What i find also is this.

The mom usually passes the adornments,that are dominate recessive (color,smell,taste,(dd) ). which usually attract themselves to DD/dd structural traits.

Dominates attract all dominates whether recessive dominate or dominate dominate ,
and recessive attract all recessive whether dominate recessive or just recessive. A structural dominate/dominate gene,will attract a homozygous gene before it will attract heterozygous.

So if lets say P1 mom passes the berry/peppery (dd,dd)flavor which is attracted to the cleft serrated sun leaf trait,(wink wink)which is (DD,DD),but she her self is asymmetric/decusate(dd,dd) which is attracted to the hay/grass smell(DD,DD)if you want the peppery/berry flavor, you will need a male that is (DD,DD) for the cleft serrated sun leaf, which is attracted to the whorled,structure which is (DD,DD)but if you want the hay/grass smell you will need to pick a male that is asymmetric/decusate(dd,dd)

But harder to do the reverse because the male gene that is passed,if its the asymmetric/decusate(dd,dd) donor..it will be really hard to get it out in the same ratio, but can be done just be harder.

The male side of it all is what stays in the gene mix, its harder to suppress unwanted traits passed from the dads ,side. unless the Moms dad was just a weak dude, LOL

But i am just saying, certain adornment traits that are attracted to structure,are easier to find via the male even tho the female passes those traits , the male seems to make those adornments louder/brighter/more pronounced.

What about you guys?My dads usually make better daughters and sons then my moms, my Moms just seem to accent my dads, Bu then again My moms could just suck LOL
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  #34  
Old 12-24-2010, 09:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
The job is not to save the gene pool, but to satisfy the guy who gave you the money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Japanfreak View Post
Outside of that...do you actually believe you are hurting the gene pool?
You probably didn't answer my question because your opinion hasn't changed of me

But i'm giving you the benefit of the doubt here, I think you're just trying to act your version of "cool" by talking like a big man but deep down don't actually believe you are doing any damage to the gene pool, but if you really think you are doing damage than you are a wanker. So which is it?

Fucking sad that somebody would say that and people would applaud it but the sad reality is that people are selfish and cheap. Maybe if seeds prices were dropped to like $10 people wouldn't mind going through 10 seeds to find a keeper, I certainly don't mind.
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  #35  
Old 12-24-2010, 09:51 PM
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Originally Posted by North View Post
Nev, what do you think of this strategy? never mind the "auto" part...just as a breeding scheme in general?

A good Friend of mine posted this up and is what he's been doing for years now as an outdoor practice. his results have been impressive.


Recurrent Selection
Demarcation of Auto-Flowering Plants to a New Environment “Climate Zone”
Recurrent Selection

Recurrent Selection is a powerful tool used to increase any trait selected for, above the parent lines used. I think it was first purposed in 1844.And it has been refined over the years till the late 1940s went it fell out of use. WHY? When most crops Had been improved with Recurrent Selection. Plant breeders used others plant-breeding tools to improve after they had used Recurrent Selection. Also do to the loss of genetically diverse groups to use as recurrent stock. It is still used to day by modern plant breeders.

One of its uses is to demarcate of plant specie to a new environment “climate zones”. Allowing for crop production in places not possible before. This method can greatly increase any characteristics selected for. Above all parent strains used (as in) higher yielding, higher THC levels than all parent lines. There are so many vegetable and grain crops that where improved with this method, a list of them is to long to post.

Experiment in Recurrent Selection plant breeding.
All strains must be 100% auto-flowering. Selecting strains that have high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
You need 10 foundation strains that are diverse as possible from each other.
You need to germinate enough seeds to have 10 NICE plants from each strain.
Always keep enough seed put back incases the experiment fails. So you can re-create if need be.

First Cycle (P1)
Planting 10 plants from each of the10 strain into a block “100 plant breeding block”
You want to give them all an equal chance of survival.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother sister cross’s. If all plants lived and crossed there would be 90 hybrids and 10 brother-sisters cross’s possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (40 plants max). The actual number of plants that survive will be much less. Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Second Cycle (F1)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the First cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s are possible.
You keep seeds from the best performing (20 plants max). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Third Cycle (F2)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Second cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (10 plants max). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Forth Cycle (F3)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Third cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Fifth Cycle (F4)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Forth cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Sixths Cycle (F5) “Line breeding”
Each plant is a Family Line seed from the Fifth cycle
Each Family Line gets its on block. You will need to have 5 blocks far away from each other. You need to germinate enough seeds to have 100 plants from each plant.
All possible intercrosses are made. Remove (kill) any and all off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

NOTE; {Short cut} To keep from growing out 500 plants and needing to find a place for 5 blocks far away from each other. You can do a progeny test on each of the 5 lines. By growing out 20 plant from each line And picking the Family Line that produce the most on type offspring. Then do the Sixths Cycle (F5) from only that one Family Line progeny tested.

Seventh Cycle F6 “Bulk breeding”
Grow at lest 100 plants.
Only remove off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Make 10,000’s Seeds

They are ready for release to farmers.
And each Cycle would be release as an improved line.
There are a few flaws in the plan. I a 100 plant plot, 50 of them are going to be male. Selecting 40 females out of 50 isn't much of a selection. He states that "The actual number of plants that survive will be much less", but he is keeping seed from the 40 best females, while at the same time selecting for "high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want)"
He's kept practically everything and open pollinated with everything. Where's the selection?

Second Cycle. He starts again with a 100 plants. What, 2.5 seeds from each of the 40 selected mothers? What is the probability of each mother producing a daughter?
For the first time he culls 50% of the females, but takes a step back again by using most of the males. I wouldn't expect too many mutations.

Third cycle. Presumably he starts with 5 or so seeds from each mother and culls about half of the females, again using most of the males, of which all were fathers unknown and keeps 10 females.

Fourth and fifth cycle are a repeat cull 50% 0f the females each time, but with little male selection.

The guy is an armchair breeder who has wasted 5 years on a bunch of seeds with unknown parentage. Many of the potentially good combinations were lost due to lack of numbers.

The whole plan sounds a bit "Plastiki" to me. Repeating words like "open pollinated" and repeating phases like "while at the same time selecting for "high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want)", strikes me as glib. Paying lip service to something is not the same as doing it.

I'd suggest that your friend skip the first 5 years of his plan and go straight to his short cut after he has decided what he likes from the many lines available today.

If you friend has impressive weed, I'd say it's because he can choose from 5 crops of 100 plants in different locations and not because his plan has much merit.

I could be wrong, but somehow the story seems a bit, ... contrived.
N.
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  #36  
Old 12-24-2010, 09:55 PM
british_hempire
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I don't understand the hostility here, I get what Nevil was saying, that customer satisfaction was important, he wasn't in the business of preservation he was in the business of providing seeds that would definitely produce worthwhile plants.

I've grown plenty of heirloom open pollinated landraces and it's hard to find worthwhile plants suitable for the average indoor grower.

You people criticising Nev here over this issue aren't looking at things with a real-world perspective, but an idealised one. People wanted seeds that produced plants that were productive with their grow resources, Nev gave them that. Maybe it would have been good in the long term is he had also worked on preservation projects but come on, don't be so harsh with the criticism because he didn't, he did enough good work that we can forgive him that. I struggle to think of examples of preservation projects to be honest, sure people have kept things alive from the 70s but a hell of a lot has been lost and that's largely the fault of the US govt. Where did the Mexican genepool go? It was sprayed with Paraquat till it was gone. What happened to the Thai genepool? They shot tens of thousands of farmers and violently eradicated it.

Find me a good Thai these days? I haven't seen or heard of one in a long time, Dalat caused a fuss a few years ago but wasn't all that good, there hasn't been anything Thai derived on the market that was much good for a long time, Thai-tanic was okay but too Skunky, Juicy Fruit was a fruity commercial yielder, DP were going to release a pure Thai but never did, SSSC had the legendary Durban-Thai Highflyer but that's lost now. The original classic Thais are gone, dead, extinct, lost for good, all we have left are fragments, mostly hybrid fragments - the 70s sats the Aussie blokes are keeping going like OMS and MM, and the Haze parents Shanti still has.

You guys don't criticise DJ Short for not preserving the Thais that went into his work so why criticise Nevil for similar things? I'm sure Nev would have loved to have been able to preserve the Haze in pure form, he tried to but incrossing brought out depression and catpiss predominance, he did the best he could with the mere handful of Haze plants he had to work with. Remember, by the time Nev began serious breeding work in the mid 80s it was already too late to preserve anything from Mexico, Thailand, Hawaii etc as they had suffered the destruction of their genepools by 1982.

If Nev thought there were still original classic Thais to be had in Thailand, don't you think he woul dhave been there to find them? He knows there is bugger all left and the best chance of finding fragments of what once was is in Haze and some old Aussie lines.

Sad to say it, but we are largely 30 years too late to start preserving things. There are still patches of largely untouched landraces left but they are in hard to reach places, many of them warstruck, violent and dangerous. Because of wars and unrest, places like Burma, New Guinea, Ceylon and Central Africa have been off limits for decades, in those places it is to be hoped that special landraces survive as they never experienced the US-backed eradication efforts that Mexico, Thailand, Hawaii, Colombia etc experienced.
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  #37  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
1:1 matings is something I'd like to address. People suggest that I'm creating a bottleneck and it's true. A bottleneck of quality. Seeds are usually produced by using two parents. With a 1:1 mating you know which ones they were.
Hi Nevil, Thank you for starting this thread. I was wondering, What is a 1:1 Mating?
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  #38  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:28 PM
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Default hey

Low number breeding,1:1

Which creates a micro diversity loss in certain genes,
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  #39  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:43 PM
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1:1 breeding, does that mean like using 1male:1female?
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  #40  
Old 12-24-2010, 11:48 PM
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Quote:
What is a 1:1 Mating?
Single parent matings ie; one male one female. Excepting selfed plants, all matings have 2 parents. In a 1:1 mating you only use one male, preferably progeny tested. I prefer the seeds from the best progeny tested male rather than seeds that come from a mixed batch of males prior to testing. Only one can be the best.
N.
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