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Nevil 12-24-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Most of the original unique populations (landraces or ancestral cultivars) have unfortunately been extremely bottle-necked and many valuable alleles have been eliminated, because the early breeders who worked with the species didn' realize that cannabis is an outcrosser and has different breeding requirements than most flower species.
Meanwhile, back in the real world, (of snazzelberries and such like) we find that the dominant genetics of the top commercial varieties are ALL polyhybrids, so where are we going with this? No doubt Chimera is selling pure open pollinated landraces, instead of feminised polyhybrids like the rest of those money-grubbers. I don't know, I've been out of things for a while.
N.

Cabron 12-24-2010 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 79886)
Meanwhile, back in the real world, (of snazzelberries and such like) we find that the dominant genetics of the top commercial varieties are ALL polyhybrids, so where are we going with this? No doubt Chimera is selling pure open pollinated landraces, instead of feminised polyhybrids like the rest of those money-grubbers. I don't know, I've been out of things for a while.
N.




:D:D:D

This going to be fun!!
It's easy to point the ethical finger
But you'd better have your duckies in a nice neat row first..

Otherwise you're gonna get called out for BS!

Cabron 12-24-2010 12:41 PM

In the real real world,,we are not going to save the fucking gene pool..
That is done by civilizations in specific geographic locations...

Example..Jamaica is already doomed! You have tourists already spreading
Dutch polluted genetics throughout the countryside to the locals.
There is most likely no landrace Jamaican strain left....it's polluted.

Is it our fault? Nope,the locals didn't have the forethought to maintain
purity...


Will their future hybrids acclimate, and over generations become yet again another
type of landrace? yeah but it's going to take awhile...
But you'll continue to have more feral genetics entered into the fray as the new generation
growers there are clueless as to maintaining purity.


What we can do as Breeders is focus on traits and make those available
with consistency to those paying the coin for them...nothing more..


It's really quite simple and a straightforward venture,,only made to look very
complicated as it's practice is masqueraded with principals and scientific terms that are tossed around and intimidate the laymen..

My advice to the novice is, it's best just to get your hands dirty and start w/o worrying about some silly failure...:cool:



Use your eye,your intuition,and take notes on results...
Some people simply "have it" it's hard to describe...

Either you are a guitarist,a successful painter,artist,,singer,etc...or you are not!

It's a spiritual gift ,a connection with a species,........symbiotic in nature.
A successful breeder just knows what plants to select to work together,almost
like a whisper in your ear from another place occurs,it comes natural.

You will never know you have this gift unless you simply pursue it...


The common sense applied with regards to structure and potency,Terpenes etc
when focusing on expected goals and results,goes w/o saying.

ortega_seeker 12-24-2010 01:24 PM

somewhere deep in the PNW hyb must be staring at this thread in pure bliss... his Xmas wish and a day early!!

ortega_seeker 12-24-2010 01:44 PM

call me old fashioned but wouldn't you be more likely to end up with a better ibl by using open pollinating multiple parents each generation and focusing on culling non desireable genotypes rather than selecting only the two very best? Takes longer but at the end of the day you have a seedline composed primarily of desireable allelles and desireable combinations of allelles rather than one that has thrown away alot of desireable alleles and likely carried along a bunch of unwanted baggage.

Nevil 12-24-2010 01:47 PM

Quote:

now where do you go from here if you want to stabilize one of those phenos?
That's a good question Coop. Often choosing another hybrid as a mate that has a duplication of the desired type in the pedigree, but in other respects is an outcross, is the best route ie SSH MH NH CM to name a few off the top of my head. I'd say that most of the phenos that you'd like to stabilise, are the way they are because of some degree of hybrid vigour. Sibling matings lead to greater uniformity in the direction of the selection criteria, but rarely do they compare favourably with the original hybrid as a strain
1:1 matings with pure strains is the quickest way to failure or success. If all you do is one male to one female each generation, you will fuck it up. I'd always do 6 or more different combinations of siblings 1:1 as a backup. I've had to back trace more than a couple of times. Sometimes the quality clearly comes from one specific plant. It pays to inbreed to that plant with different parents before moving on to further sibling matings. It help to isolate these specific plants if the matings are 1:1
The fact is, that working with open pollinated lines is much more of a numbers game. Great if you have a good climate and a number of hectares to work with.
Back in the olden days, people I sold seeds to mostly were growers who were very limited as to how many plants they could grow. Every plant counted, they had to be good. A lot of work went into making the best 1:1 matings with predictable high quality results.
I also gave breeders plenty to work with. G13 Haze was a 1:1 mating as were most of the other varieties I sold. These lines are the building blocks of most breeders catalogues. Those most vocal in their criticism of my methods would often have nothing left to work with if their lines made up of my strains disappeared from their collections. Go figure!
N.

dr Rockster 12-24-2010 02:21 PM

Great post Cabron, that really resonates with me.

I don't believe the 'Dutch' cannabis gene pool, by which I mean the one most growers draw from is a threat to the cannabis genome, even fems do no harm as they do not pollute the population by virtue of their genetic status, ok, S1's are used in crosses but their genes don't get back to their original source and pollute them unlike as you properly mentioned, Jamaica, a classic example as we now now see dread locked keepers of hard to get to hill top gardens on Youtube yammering on about AK farking 47, White Widow and all the usual suspects.

But ya can't blame the farmer, he's trying to get food for for his childrens table and he's not Gregor Mendel and may well like a bit of variety in his garden.

Of course I agree with Chimera about open pollination to preserve all potentially desireable alleles within a given population but also don't disagree
with Nev vis a vie single males being used in crosses.

People go on about genetics bottlenecks being undesirable and certainly in the natural world we know this to be true. Take for example the Cheetah in which it has been estimated by geneticists that they were once down to a population was down to a few individuals, maybe a couple of family groups and as a result they are severely inbred and their sperm has about 10% of the motility/viability as that of the domestic cat.

So inbred you can take a skin graft of any Cheetah on the planet and graft it onto any other and it will not reject as it's virtually genetically identical so spare a thought for the Cheetah, huh?

But as regards cannabis, using a single male, if it carries the alleles you want it'll do so to the exclusion of others but that shouldn't be a problem as severely bottlenecked cannabis grows just as well as any. In nature by bottle necking you might unconsciously dial out alleles relating to resistance to insect predation and potentially harmful pathogens but in our HPS nicely vented environment we have very few natural obstacles to contend with bar spidermite, botyritis, pythium, fungus gnats and maybe a few other nasties but they are held in check by a good growing environment so are not really a threat to a well managed garden.

I'm growing plants derived from a single clone and they look as healthy and happy as any I've ever grown so I think the concept of the single male producing a harmful bottleneck(with respect to growing cannabis indoors in a favourable environment) is totally erroneous.

Sure, open pollinate 2 separate plant populations to preserve the combined genetic information but from within that I'm sure you can dial out portions of it and focus on your breeding goal whatever that may be without somehow compromising the integrity of the remaining alleles you are working with.

Just my 2p:)

waverunner_21 12-24-2010 02:22 PM

YouTube - T.H.SEEDS Amsterdam Feminized, Cannabis Breeding, Growing by AdventuresInEurope.com

is that what your getting at cabron, theres a bit in there about Jamaica and how it has lost it landraces

also found this, it relates to keeping males on a small scale, looks very useful for keeping pollen from getting to the plants you dont want if you want to breed but don't have castle or a warehouse.

DIY JLP's Male Isolation Chamber - THCfarmer

budding grower 12-24-2010 03:03 PM

just wanted to post in a historic thread. Am reading with great interest, I have only ever made 3 crosses and I couldn't help but notice the plants were as good or sometimes better than seeds i had spent a pretty penny on.


Quote:

Jamaica, a classic example as we now now see dread locked keepers of hard to get to hill top gardens on Youtube yammering on about AK farking 47, White Widow and all the usual suspects.
thats down to dumb white tourists, yep the dutch gene pool is no threat, we've seen fems pollute many grows online.... genetic status be damned.

North 12-24-2010 03:14 PM

Nev, what do you think of this strategy? never mind the "auto" part...just as a breeding scheme in general?

A good Friend of mine posted this up and is what he's been doing for years now as an outdoor practice. his results have been impressive.


Recurrent Selection
Demarcation of Auto-Flowering Plants to a New Environment “Climate Zone”
Recurrent Selection

Recurrent Selection is a powerful tool used to increase any trait selected for, above the parent lines used. I think it was first purposed in 1844.And it has been refined over the years till the late 1940s went it fell out of use. WHY? When most crops Had been improved with Recurrent Selection. Plant breeders used others plant-breeding tools to improve after they had used Recurrent Selection. Also do to the loss of genetically diverse groups to use as recurrent stock. It is still used to day by modern plant breeders.

One of its uses is to demarcate of plant specie to a new environment “climate zones”. Allowing for crop production in places not possible before. This method can greatly increase any characteristics selected for. Above all parent strains used (as in) higher yielding, higher THC levels than all parent lines. There are so many vegetable and grain crops that where improved with this method, a list of them is to long to post.

Experiment in Recurrent Selection plant breeding.
All strains must be 100% auto-flowering. Selecting strains that have high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
You need 10 foundation strains that are diverse as possible from each other.
You need to germinate enough seeds to have 10 NICE plants from each strain.
Always keep enough seed put back incases the experiment fails. So you can re-create if need be.

First Cycle (P1)
Planting 10 plants from each of the10 strain into a block “100 plant breeding block”
You want to give them all an equal chance of survival.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother sister cross’s. If all plants lived and crossed there would be 90 hybrids and 10 brother-sisters cross’s possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (40 plants max). The actual number of plants that survive will be much less. Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Second Cycle (F1)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the First cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s are possible.
You keep seeds from the best performing (20 plants max). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant, (what ever you want).
Keep the same number of seed from each plant and enough seed from each plant to sow a 100-plant block.

Third Cycle (F2)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Second cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (10 plants max). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Forth Cycle (F3)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Third cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Fifth Cycle (F4)
Plant a 100-plant block from the selected seed from the Forth cycle
Grow them; remove (kill) any off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Open pollinate; All possible intercross are made and including brother/sister and backcross cross’s and double-hybrids are possible.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high thc, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

Sixths Cycle (F5) “Line breeding”
Each plant is a Family Line seed from the Fifth cycle
Each Family Line gets its on block. You will need to have 5 blocks far away from each other. You need to germinate enough seeds to have 100 plants from each plant.
All possible intercrosses are made. Remove (kill) any and all off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
You keep the seeds from the best performing (5 plants). Selecting for high THC, high yield, pest resistant, mold and or fungus resistant.

NOTE; {Short cut} To keep from growing out 500 plants and needing to find a place for 5 blocks far away from each other. You can do a progeny test on each of the 5 lines. By growing out 20 plant from each line And picking the Family Line that produce the most on type offspring. Then do the Sixths Cycle (F5) from only that one Family Line progeny tested.

Seventh Cycle F6 “Bulk breeding”
Grow at lest 100 plants.
Only remove off type plants and any mutation before breeding occurs.
Make 10,000’s Seeds

They are ready for release to farmers.
And each Cycle would be release as an improved line.


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