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-   -   Breeding techniques (https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/6-breeders-support-information/5559-breeding-techniques.html)

Greezzy Guy 12-24-2010 11:50 PM

yes
 
Yes it creates issue ,like loss of vigor/susceptibility to virus,diseases,and pest.

and certain genes can be hidden so deep to never be seen again, like the eye color red, its there deep in the human DNA, but we will never see it, it has become lossed junk DNA

With no other genes mixed, hybrid diversity slowly gets suppressed.

joshuahazen 12-24-2010 11:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 80033)
Single parent matings ie; one male one female. Excepting selfed plants, all matings have 2 parents. In a 1:1 mating you only use one male, preferably progeny tested. I prefer the seeds from the best progeny tested male rather than seeds that come from a mixed batch of males prior to testing. Only one can be the best.
N.

I see, that makes sense, thats what I thought you meant. So you could do a 1:1 mating with say, one male and 10 different females. then you would have 10 paired 1:1 mating crosses, is that right?

Greezzy Guy 12-24-2010 11:54 PM

hrmm
 
I agree and disagree ..N

One can only be the best average, one can never be the best, not one, will carry all the traits,one trait may be in one male, and the other in another male.

But yes one will pass the most traits.,But there never is just One good male, ever.

Greezzy Guy 12-25-2010 12:19 AM

Well it would be a 1:10 m/f ratio,

The best would be your dads best daughter, with her best adornments, and take all of her brothers,tag her,only.Then take the best female from that, and ,tag the dad back to her,then take all the sons from that same, batch , and tag the mom, back.

Now then start your 1:1 from those 2 batches .that is a classic inbreed lol.

But really all male should be of a different gene pool with the same as can be structure.

But like some have said, Its not like there is all this free riegn , to get what ever we want.

I would rather have a green house imbreed,line then an open pollinated strain with feral fiber hemp floating around.

Wouldnt you??

Nevil 12-25-2010 12:36 AM

Quote:

I see, that makes sense, thats what I thought you meant. So you could do a 1:1 mating with say, one male and 10 different females. then you would have 10 paired 1:1 mating crosses, is that right?
I'd do it the other way around. You know more about the female. I usually did the 2nd best female with the separate males as well, just as a backup.
N.

Greezzy Guy 12-25-2010 12:48 AM

yes
 
I also agree 100% with nev the other way is def, the better way

Greezzy Guy 12-25-2010 12:53 AM

Hey Nev do you keep your back ups as plants or just seeds or both,ATM me just beans, no room for live back ups.

And if beans would you rather keep female beans, or do you keep regular also?

Goahead and shoot me now,cant wait for the slaps, I keep my back ups,..cough...FEmale..beans.

LOL

joshuahazen 12-25-2010 02:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 80033)
...preferably progeny tested. I prefer the seeds from the best progeny tested male rather than seeds that come from a mixed batch of males prior to testing. Only one can be the best.
N.

See? These little gems are one of the main reasons why I am on here. That is so simple yet so brilliant. It makes perfect sense. I am assuming progeny tested means that you use a clone of a male that has been tested to have progeny which shows positive for the traits you are breeding for. This is something I have done, sporadically, in my breeding programs of the past, with a few very special males. But it never occurred to me to use the technique as the central backbone of a breeding program.

biteme 12-25-2010 02:24 AM

let me step up to the table and second whoever in stating the genetics i seek are absolutely expected to be uniform and stable. i do not breed so what happens with these same genetics in successive generations is of little interest to me. if i save any plants it is a f1 only that interests me. peace-biteme

joshuahazen 12-25-2010 02:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 80047)
I'd do it the other way around. You know more about the female. I usually did the 2nd best female with the separate males as well, just as a backup.
N.

I see what you are saying. When I was breeding, generally, what I did was, I had one particular cross in mind, and I would usually use one male(sometimes 2 or 3 from the same stock), but not a progeny tested male, because I was breeding generationally, and doing several generations per year, so I didn't have time to progeny test them, however the males that proved superior, I would save for backcrossing.

Anyway I had one or two particular crosses in mind, but I would generally throw a bunch of other top female clones in there as well, for good measure. My reasoning was, that a tested productive female mother, could represent as many as the best of thousands, yet it only took up one space, wheras my main cross or crosses were generally from untested seedlings and the mother clone that they came from, the seed coming from the best progeny of the previous generation and the clone being their mother(s). By throwing a clone or 2 of each of my top producing females on top, I could maximize my genetic diversity. There have been times, when my some of my best females and lines, have come out of these secondary side crosses.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 03:18 AM

Guess it was too much to ask for a simple answer to a simple question....not that it surprises me.

joshuahazen 12-25-2010 03:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by british_hempire (Post 80001)

Sad to say it, but we are largely 30 years too late to start preserving things. There are still patches of largely untouched landraces left but they are in hard to reach places, many of them warstruck, violent and dangerous. Because of wars and unrest, places like Burma, New Guinea, Ceylon and Central Africa have been off limits for decades, in those places it is to be hoped that special landraces survive as they never experienced the US-backed eradication efforts that Mexico, Thailand, Hawaii, Colombia etc experienced.


Hempire, It is not too late yet. I believe if we all work together, perhaps we can save some of what is left. Perhaps MNS could be a central hub of this movement. I can play some kind of role in this, as I still have access to many North African varieties of untouched landraces. I am sure that many others on this forum have access to other pure landraces... It is possible, that by working together, perhaps MNS can dedicate a branch, to the preservation of what landraces still exist and can be tracked down. Nevil, What do you think about this idea?

b0b_b1tch1n 12-25-2010 03:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanfreak (Post 80076)
Guess it was too much to ask for a simple answer to a simple question....not that it surprises me.

hell i sent a pm and cant get an answer/response , nice eh :rolleyes:

Nevil 12-25-2010 04:13 AM

Quote:

Outside of that...do you actually believe you are hurting the gene pool?
Do you? I've put out strains that people are still using. Obviously they were better than what was otherwise available. I'd venture to guess that you are growing stuff that originally came from me. Is it hurting you? I have trouble taking the question seriously, that's why I didn't respond, but it appears you are serious.
N.

Dr. Purpur 12-25-2010 04:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 80084)
Do you? I've put out strains that people are still using. Obviously they were better than what was otherwise available. I'd venture to guess that you are growing stuff that originally came from me. Is it hurting you? I have trouble taking the question seriously, that's why I didn't respond, but it appears you are serious.
N.

You did a great job with what You had. You tapped into some great genetics, and put out some awesome strains and building blocks.

british_hempire 12-25-2010 04:25 AM

Indeed, remove all the stuff Nev had a hand in and there's not much left. Not many others have introduced a great deal to the scene, sadly, it's a pretty bottlenecked genepool really.

joshuahazen 12-25-2010 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 79836)
This is a time proven method of doing things. In breeding, compatible lines are called a "nick". In researching nicks, I've found that they usually trace back to common lines, often many generations back. I think that we should start a thread titled Breeding. This seems to be where we are going.
N.

Hi Nevil, I would like to discuss this, I have found, that when working with NL5Hz, some strains were very compatible, where most were not. In fact out of many strains I tried, I only found 2 that were very compatible, and crossed really well with NL5Hz, out of maybe 10-15. The others were ok, except for one, which was really bad. The two exceptional ones though, just seemed to click. The strains I went with were strains that allow the characteristic Haze stoniness shine through. I found one strain in particular from Humboldt County, an oldschool Giant Indica strain, that did exceptionally well; I crossed and backcrossed this strain with another N Cali Giant Indica, and wound up with a fairly stable, true breeding Hybrid, that is 50% NL5hz. I have found, that this hybrid seems to cross well into just about anything.

I have always wondered why this is, and I have some theories about it. I call it the Haze Matrix.

I then crossed this hybrid, into so many north american strains and some landrace strains, and virtually everything crossed well with it, from pure sativa to pure indica.


What do you think about this?

joshuahazen 12-25-2010 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanfreak (Post 80076)
Guess it was too much to ask for a simple answer to a simple question....not that it surprises me.

Actually it was quite a stupid and rude question. That would be like asking Luther Burbank if he hurt the potato gene pool. Virtually all of the potatoes we use today were originally bred by Luther Burbank. Or maybe he hurt the Nectarine Genepool? Burbank invented the Nectarine.

Nevil Bred, hybridized, perfected and distributed most of the strains being used today.
The fact that many of the strains are falling apart is not Nevil's Fault, quite the opposite actually, it is the result of bad breeding and ignorance on the part of other breeders who were lucky enough to inherit Nevil's Superstrains.


Obviously he has helped the Genepool. Although I suppose its relative. If you are growing any holland strains, or BC strains, you should be thanking Nevil, for doing such a spectacular initial job, of tracking down, hybridizing and fixing, these remarkable strains.

Instead of trying to derail the thread with Moronic, impertinant, egotistical, ridiculous and insulting questions, why don't you try to learn something. There is a Master in the room.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 05:53 AM

Pretty easy question, nothing rude about it. He bragged about not giving a shit if he hurts the gene pool, he didn't say anything about if he believes he is or not, I'm curious if he does.

Nevil posted some pretty moronic bullshit in my opinion, but I'm not a groupie so maybe I see things differently.

Maybe the master can answer the question.

british_hempire 12-25-2010 06:00 AM

Pretty moronic bullshit?

That's way too harsh and completely uncalled for. You came in this thread with a really hostile attitude, if you can drop that I'm sure you'll find it easier to get answers to your questions.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 06:15 AM

No hostile attitude from me, just a question does he believe he's hurting the gene pool or not.

Yes I do, but I don't give a shit
No, I don't believe that bullshit at all


I hear people talk about bottle necking and the dangers all over the place so I was asking Nevil if he believes it. Yeah real hostile :rolleyes:

Nevil 12-25-2010 06:40 AM

Quote:

Nevil posted some pretty moronic bullshit in my opinion, but I'm not a groupie so maybe I see things differently.
Ah you're still just a little ray of sunshine aren't you JF. You will inderstand that if I don't waste anymore time on your questions, it's because I think you are a waste of time.
N.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 06:45 AM

Right.....so you are going to ignore the question and talk shit about me instead. real mature of you there. I'll just assume then that you do believe it hurts the gene pool but don't give a fuck. :rolleyes:

Back to your groupies who don't give a shit I guess.

british_hempire 12-25-2010 06:47 AM

I just don't get the harming the genepool thing. Nev just tracked down the best genes he could find at the time to work with and it seems to me from what he's said that he remained open to finding new genes to work with after that but very little worthwhile came along and more and more things were based on his earlier work so it became harder and harder to find anything new to work with.

Would we even have genes like NL, G13, Haze and others even available to us today if it wasn't for Nev? They only existed in the hand of very few before Nev made em widespread.

How do you think he harmed the genepool? I really don't get it at all, not one bit. People were largely growing bagseeds from imports before Nev started the seed biz, if it wasn't for the fact that they couldn't find good seeds then Nev wouldn't have made a fortune in cash thru the mail and ended up in HT photographed counting order money that attracted the DEA's interest, there were no good seeds to be had for 99% of folks in the wake of Green Merchant, so when Nev appeared selling seeds thru an ad in HT people were all over it, that clearly shows they didn't have access to good seed before that.

Nevil 12-25-2010 06:58 AM

Quote:

I just don't get the harming the genepool thing. Nev just tracked down the best genes he could find at the time to work with and it seems to me from what he's said that he remained open to finding new genes to work with after that but very little worthwhile came along and more and more things were based on his earlier work so it became harder and harder to find anything new to work with.
That about sums up my position BH. I don't get how spreading elete genes harmed the genepool. If you don't like my work, don't use it. If you think you can do better, go ahead. I'm just one guy, but I did stand up to be counted. So what are my detractors famous for. I know what JF's famous for, but it's hardly making the world a better place, or is that just my job?
N.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 07:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by british_hempire (Post 80099)
I just don't get the harming the genepool thing. Nev just tracked down the best genes he could find at the time to work with and it seems to me from what he's said that he remained open to finding new genes to work with after that but very little worthwhile came along and more and more things were based on his earlier work so it became harder and harder to find anything new to work with.

Would we even have genes like NL, G13, Haze and others even available to us today if it wasn't for Nev? They only existed in the hand of very few before Nev made em widespread.

How do you think he harmed the genepool? I really don't get it at all, not one bit. People were largely growing bagseeds from imports before Nev started the seed biz, if it wasn't for the fact that they couldn't find good seeds then Nev wouldn't have made a fortune in cash thru the mail and ended up in HT photographed counting order money that attracted the DEA's interest, there were no good seeds to be had for 99% of folks in the wake of Green Merchant, so when Nev appeared selling seeds thru an ad in HT people were all over it, that clearly shows they didn't have access to good seed before that.

I don't think he did harm the gene pool, I don't know shit about it, but since it was brought up and he commented on it not being his job I was curious what he believes about the accusation.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 07:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 80100)
That about sums up my position BH. I don't get how spreading elete genes harmed the genepool. If you don't like my work, don't use it. If you think you can do better, go ahead. I'm just one guy, but I did stand up to be counted. So what are my detractors famous for. I know what JF's famous for, but it's hardly making the world a better place, or is that just my job?
N.

Excuse me? It's a handle on the internet. I do a lot for my fellow man, I would dare bet a whole lot fucking more than you actually. How much of your money goes to charity there big guy? How much volunteer work you do big guy?

Better stick to your groupies seriously.

Ouchie 12-25-2010 07:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nOpe (Post 79878)
Nice view on evolution ouchie, thanks for the link. Don't understand how it translates into breeding... do you mean that related to crossing hybrids increasing the complexity or something?

Not exactly, but you can take that out of it if it makes sense to you. Imagine the universe always heading towards entropy. Everything is dying, everything is fading away. Through evolution and complexity, new higher forms of complexity are born throughout the universe. This goes completely against entropy, and actually uses entropy to it's advantage. So while all of us are looking for that "old" gene in the gene pool, mother nature and the universe itself has already perpetuated complexities beyond your imagining. So while you're chasing entropy, the universe itself is heading towards higher and higher complexities. In my opinion, do the best job you can with the best genetics you can get your hands on, and you have nothing to worry about my friends, everything will be perfect in the end.

Nevil 12-25-2010 07:43 AM

Quote:

Hi Nevil, I would like to discuss this, I have found, that when working with NL5Hz, some strains were very compatible, where most were not
It's a good point Joshua. Contrary to expectation, a lot of lines just don't click. Even with totally unrelated indicas and sativas, the results are not predictable. For every hybrid that made it into the catalogue, dozens didn't. When you isolated which strains went well together, what still remained was to find the best combination of single parents that out-performed all others. I narrowed down the genepool to the best of the best. Why mix the best combination of plants with the less successful sibling matings. For the sake of someones idea of what's best for the genepool?
People were generally paying me to help them grow the best of what a line or hybrid had to offer. I'm sure I got that part right. All the shit I culled made others champion growers. I loved that job. The gratitude that some people showed, for being able to be in the front row for the first time in their lives was very rewarding.
Most of the work was testing ideas about what went well together and refining it. As far as I can tell, the job is still the same.
N.

bushweed 12-25-2010 09:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanfreak (Post 80104)
I do a lot for my fellow man, I would dare bet a whole lot fucking more than you actually.

Man, you're a bit too fucken ubiquitous for someone who offers nothing but criticisms and whining arguments. You clog up so many of these blogs without appearing to contribute one iota of insight to any argument you enter.

So now you're saying you're an abrasive, mean spirited dickhead on here, and a warm, caring charitable guy out there?

How congruous.

Sounds like a load of Bullshit to me.

Nevil 12-25-2010 09:38 AM

Yeah the Nasty Saint was a bit hard for me to swallow too Bushy. I just wish that he would go somewhere else and spread his joy. If I could be bothered, I'd count how many responses have been wasted on trying to counter his negativity. I think it's best that we don't respond to his taunts. It seems to be his main joy in posting on forums.
N.

wonkadonk 12-25-2010 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushweed (Post 80115)
Man, you're a bit too fucken ubiquitous for someone who offers nothing but criticisms and whining arguments. You clog up so many of these blogs without appearing to contribute one iota of insight to any argument you enter.

So now you're saying you're an abrasive, mean spirited dickhead on here, and a warm, caring charitable guy out there?

How congruous.

Sounds like a load of Bullshit to me.

From his first posts it seems he has been on a Sabotage mission.

zesk 12-25-2010 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushweed (Post 80115)
Man, you're a bit too fucken ubiquitous for someone who offers nothing but criticisms and whining arguments. You clog up so many of these blogs without appearing to contribute one iota of insight to any argument you enter.

So now you're saying you're an abrasive, mean spirited dickhead on here, and a warm, caring charitable guy out there?

How congruous.

Sounds like a load of Bullshit to me.

couldn't agree more, i love reading these kind of threads

iv already learnt alot and im sure theres alot more to come :D

every 5 or so posts you (japanfreak) keep going on at nevil

are you surprised that he dosn't feel obliged to reply to you after some of the arguments you'v had with each other in the past month.

please, for everyone, stop the shite

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 09:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bushweed (Post 80115)
So now you're saying you're an abrasive, mean spirited dickhead on here, and a warm, caring charitable guy out there?

Yeah I know it's hard to get your head around. People aren't like they appear on the net. Well not very hard for me to grasp.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 09:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zesk (Post 80120)
every 5 or so posts you (japanfreak) keep going on at nevil

Bullshit. I asked a question, he didn't answer I asked again and was attacked so I answered. Nevil on the other hand has called me an asshole out of the gate and has insulted me every chance he gets. The wanker could have answered the question and it would have been done.

I suggest you people don'T make comments about me or ask me questions if you don't want me to reply. I know, really hard concept for those of weak wills.

Japanfreak 12-25-2010 10:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nevil (Post 80118)
Yeah the Nasty Saint was a bit hard for me to swallow too Bushy. I just wish that he would go somewhere else and spread his joy. If I could be bothered, I'd count how many responses have been wasted on trying to counter his negativity. I think it's best that we don't respond to his taunts. It seems to be his main joy in posting on forums.
N.

And I wish you would stop flinging shit and thinking it's not shit but we know that's not going to happen.

waverunner_21 12-25-2010 10:07 AM

merry christmas one and all.

nOpe 12-25-2010 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ouchie (Post 80106)
Not exactly, but you can take that out of it if it makes sense to you. Imagine the universe always heading towards entropy. Everything is dying, everything is fading away. Through evolution and complexity, new higher forms of complexity are born throughout the universe. This goes completely against entropy, and actually uses entropy to it's advantage. So while all of us are looking for that "old" gene in the gene pool, mother nature and the universe itself has already perpetuated complexities beyond your imagining. So while you're chasing entropy, the universe itself is heading towards higher and higher complexities. In my opinion, do the best job you can with the best genetics you can get your hands on, and you have nothing to worry about my friends, everything will be perfect in the end.

The glory of vocabulary based on tech. First I translated entropy, didn't help, bloody greeks made the word. Then I wiki'ed in english, maybe I learn some other words there too, fuck what thermodynamics? Didn't understand a word. Well then, I wiki'ed in german and finally there was a simpler explenation.

Level of the irriversability of a process. That's the explenation under "physics". Now Im gonna aplly that to your post... what doesn't fit together here for me is the MAN. The entropy we have now is related to humans interferring. I don't belive that there will be any good outcome in the topic "MAN vs WORLD". Karma is a bitch...

dr Rockster 12-25-2010 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Japanfreak (Post 80095)
No hostile attitude from me, just a question does he believe he's hurting the gene pool or not.

Yes I do, but I don't give a shit
No, I don't believe that bullshit at all


I hear people talk about bottle necking and the dangers all over the place so I was asking Nevil if he believes it. Yeah real hostile :rolleyes:

No of course it doesn't hurt the cannabis genome, the only way to do that is to introduce modern hybridised cannabis into environments where original landraces are grown.

So how do you think it's hurting things?

Cabron 12-25-2010 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greezzy Guy (Post 80055)
Hey Nev do you keep your back ups as plants or just seeds or both,ATM me just beans, no room for live back ups.

And if beans would you rather keep female beans, or do you keep regular also?

Goahead and shoot me now,cant wait for the slaps, I keep my back ups,..cough...FEmale..beans.

LOL

Greezy
I may be going out on a limb here,but I'm going to guess Nev does not keep feminized seeds...

I'm sure he has played with them,but not for safeguarding genetics,,that's not his cup of tea.

With regards to "keeping Back ups"
or rather safeguarding a strain ,you will have to understand it takes 2 unique P1 parents to create a strain or line.

If those exact plants are not kept alive,then the ability to replicate the same seed is gone as well..

It's a very simple and straight forward concept and practice..

You cannot recreate the magic 2 perfectly combined P1 parents create,using other siblings with any degree of certainty,nor accuracy.

Unless each line is so over the top inbred and pure ,the results will differ.

With that principal out of the way,,it's also imperative to understand something about feminized seeds..


This is where I really like to pound it home!

The notion spread around the international community that by feminizing a plant and selfing it to create a S1 is going to give you a clone in essence of that same pheno or genetic composite is absolutely laughable.


The same tools spouting off about this BS are taking clones from the USA and selfing them and selling them as a seed line that is supposed to represent that individual unique specimen..


Not how it works....and for that same reason your reasoning that anybody is going to safe guard a strain by maintaining femmed seeds is also not feasible.

You may get any type of pheno show up in a S1 that is stemming back generations on either side of the P1 parents that created that unique cut.

What you are most certainly not guaranteed to get is a replication of the plant it came from...

In some cases with strains such as Trainwreck I've played with her and selfed her years ago as well as made plenty of femmed F1's ,,that plant
has dominant genes that will carry over to generations and create similar specimens.

That tells me those boys worked within that pool for a few generations or more before she was isolated.


Of course the stooges at Gh come to mind when I mention this,and I will say yet again that the Trainwreck cut they were sold is not,and was not the real Arcata cut....not even close .


I know I've worked that gal long enough,inside and out!

That's the same reason there are E32 Males out there throwing the same traits in all regards to their offspring..Reserve Prada or whoever they were made a Purple wreck by crossing The E32 male to the P Urkle cut...
I had a selected pheno of that from a 40 oz gentleman..

The bottom line is you must maintain the original P1 parents(not seed) to maintain a line,,,,something Simon at Serious can't seem to grasp!

He still thinks that his ak47 is ak47! :rolleyes:

I really hate to even address the topic of the genepool and damage etc..
I've went to battle with idiots over the years on these sites about this,and my feminizing seeds hurting or pissing in the pool
they like to say..

I'd like to once yet again say to anybody who thinks they are sooo important to get up on their lil stool and preach
to build a greenhouse and start collecting all the strains all over the world and safe guard them,,,or bang hard enough
on the door to the underground cave they have stored all the seedstock to species in,,somewhere in Norway or such..


Maybe the guy will open that door and you can bring all the varieties in and maintain them there ...

But until you actually do something like that ,,,then you sir can kindly have a nice hot cup of
"shut the fuck up!" and enjoy that!


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