Mr. Nice Forums  
Home History Strains Media Web Community Medical Marijuana Contact us Auctions

Go Back   MNS Forums > MNS strains and grow diaries > 6. Breeders support and information

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1111  
Old 09-25-2019, 04:49 PM
P3Ci's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: near my Korgs and Rolands )
Posts: 117
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack hairy View Post
according to the ICNCP,

cannabis strains would be considered cultivars, not subspecies.

and again, whether it is considered a species, subspecies, cultivar, etc... does not change the key to the definition of f1 hybridization.
two differing or unrelated genepools.

if you take a brazillian sativa, and an indian hybrid, and bring them together, you may have an f1.
if you make two pairings of those f1's and make two different lines for f2, f3,f4, etc...
then bring them back together.
do they have a different genepool?
or are they all swimming in the same brazillian and indian hybrid lake?
I think, if you are linebreding two lines like this, then by crosing them together u get F1 again. From my logic.
__________________
To top, or not to top?
Reply With Quote
  #1112  
Old 09-25-2019, 05:40 PM
Paky One's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 60
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by P3Ci View Post
I think, if you are linebreding two lines like this, then by crosing them together u get F1 again. From my logic.
Finally someone with some common sense.

Cheers.
Reply With Quote
  #1113  
Old 09-25-2019, 05:41 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,814
Default

not if they are related, which they would be.

i think some of you need to go back and think about the hybridization aspect.
what is the purpose? what are the benefits?

if you bring together two related lines, will you get the same positive results?
no, because you already have some of those genes on both sides.
only if you breed the lines until they are homozygous, and then cross to another plant that does not have the same genes, will you get a heterozygous f1 plant.
Reply With Quote
  #1114  
Old 09-25-2019, 05:54 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,814
Default

here is some quick google info to help you understand.

Quote:
Homozygous and Heterozygous
A pure trait is also known as a homozygous trait. Homozygous traits are either a combination of the same two dominant alleles or the same two recessive alleles. A hybrid trait is also known as a heterozygous trait, and is the pairing of a dominant and recessive allele.

so guys, please tell me how you will get the desired outcome by crossing related lines with the same genes?
Reply With Quote
  #1115  
Old 09-25-2019, 06:42 PM
P3Ci's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2019
Location: near my Korgs and Rolands )
Posts: 117
Default

Aha, OK, so not F1 but Inbredline, its just inbredline?, I mean few post aerlier.

Hybridization must always be related to two differneces, plants with different characteristics, because there has to be change done somewhere to some degree. Then you can call it hybrid, because it have now traits, that wasnt there earlier.

maybe bad / example, if you grow numbers instead:
thats my logic now, so nothing briliant really

You got #1 but want #5
> so you find #10 somewhere, where it is.
and then your #1 cross that #10 -> youll get something between that, so in numbers u get #5 somewhere between those new numbers all those gonna be hybrids.
If you wanna inbred numbers that are only #5 you be inbreeding up to point there is only #5 left and then it cannot be hybrid anymore, because there will be no difference in numbers.


What if one wants to cross two very similar plants together. Then this is actually what is haunting me. Like if you want to breed two very similar sativas? There will be no way of crosing them, thus not posible making hybrid, but you can start inbreeding them, so they will mix in eventually?

oh where is my book, and how to speed up lufe time for plants to see
__________________
To top, or not to top?
Reply With Quote
  #1116  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:10 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,814
Default

brilliant in its simplicity.

say selection could get you a range of +/- 1.

you cross #1 and #10 and have #5 f1's.
you select two different lines to work towards. 4 f1 plants, or 3, two females and 1 male
you make selections in each line back towards either of the two original parent types.(#1 and #10)
you make f2's then you select a 6 and a 4 out of the f2's.
then you make f3's and select a 7 and a 3.
then you make f4's and select an 8 and a 2.
9 and 1.
well it didnt work out perfectly, but you get the idea.
then in theory you could make a hybrid of the two lines and be back around #5

but thats just an example of the goal and not necessarily how it works with genes and selection. through selection based on observance, you will get homozygosity for a number of genes. but not all. lots of genes are hidden, that is you cant define its effect visually. until it is inbred to the point the entire genotype is homozygous.
then you do that with two lines made from the same genepool, and you may already be homozygous for certain traits between the two lines. and if your genes are homozygous, you will not get the hybrid, heterozygous effect.
and that is what it comes down to, wanting all the dominant genes on display in all plants of that generation.
Reply With Quote
  #1117  
Old 09-25-2019, 08:30 PM
Banned
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: michigan
Posts: 1,814
Default

and in knowing you are heterozygous, then in the f2's you will be able to find 50% heterozygous, 25% pure dominant and 25% double recessive trait plants.

if you are not heterozygous as f1, because the parents were already homozygous,
you may not get the double recessive traits at all and %'s for other combinations will be affected.

now something i dont understand is why it should matter if you are already homozygous in both parents for a dominant trait, then they will breed true for that trait in the offspring.
how is that any different than the dominant genes being expressed in the heterozygous plant, other than its effect on future breeding?
to me it seems like that would be the goal, to have that good gene locked down in homozygous form.
Reply With Quote
  #1118  
Old 09-25-2019, 10:08 PM
Paky One's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 60
Default Genefinder @ The Flying Dutchman helpdesk / cannabisworld circa 2001]

Thai-tanic X Swazi Safari ?

Give it a try, we ourselves have not made this cross. I think though that you will probably get a lot of Skunk types plants. The cross would contain two times the same father (Skunk #1), one swazi and one Thai. Logically this would mean that the traits exhibited in the F2 gen. would vary between these four types, the next trick is to select two mothers and one father (or two fathers and one mother although logistically this is more difficult) that fit your criteria and to begin TWO lines until you are satisfied (all the plants show all the traits that you chose in the beginning)with the results, then to bring the two lines together to bring vigour back into the cross, you have a one in four chances of a stable seed pool ( due to introducing two different lines together) that show all the previously selected positive traits.Its a lot of fun and you will be smoking a lot of different shit along the way so good luck. Chose males that are big, early. vigorous with short internode length that are generally the visually most impressive.[
Reply With Quote
  #1119  
Old 10-30-2019, 01:42 PM
Paky One's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 60
Default

What did RCC wrote in 1981?

It looks like some should have paid more attention...

R.C. Clarke in: Marijuana Botany - An Advanced Study: The Propagation and Breeding of Distinctive Cannabis (1981)

The most common use of hybridization is to cross two outstanding varieties. Hybrids can be produced by crossing selected individuals from different high- potency strains of different origins, such as Thailand and Mexico. These two parents may share only the characteristic of high psycho activity and differ in nearly every other respect. From this great exchange of genes many phenotypes may appear in the F2 generations. From these offspring the breeder selects individuals that express the best characteristics of the parents. As an example, consider some of the offspring from the P1 (parental) cross: Mexico X Thailand. In this case, genes for high drug content are selected from both parents while other desirable characteristics can be selected from either one. Genes for large stature and early maturation are selected from the Mexican seed-parent, and genes for large calyx size and sweet floral aroma are selected from the Thai pollen parent. Many of the F1 offspring exhibit several of the desired characteristics. To further promote gene segregation, the plants most nearly approaching the ideal are crossed among themselves. The F2 generation is a great source of variation and recessive expression. In the F2 generation there are several individuals out of many that exhibit all five of the selected characteristics.

Now the process of inbreeding begins, using the desirable F2 parents.
If possible, two or more separate lines are started, never allowing them to interbreed. In this case one acceptable staminate plant is selected along with two pistillate plants (or vice versa). Crosses between the pollen parent and the two seed parents result in two lines of inheritance with slightly differing genetics, but each expressing the desired characteristics. Each generation will produce new, more acceptable combinations.

If two inbred strains are crossed, F1 hybrids will be less variable than if two hybrid strains are crossed. This comes from limiting the diversity of the gene pools in the two strains to be hybridized through previous inbreeding. Further independent selection and inbreeding of the best plants for several generations will establish two strains which are true-breeding for all the originally selected traits. This means that all the offspring from any parents in the strain will give rise to seedlings which all exhibit the selected traits. Successive inbreeding may by this time have resulted in steady decline in the vigor of the strain.

When lack of vigor interferes with selecting phenotypes for size and hardiness, the two separately selected strains can then be interbred to recombine nonselected genes and restore vigor. This will probably not interfere with breeding for the selected traits unless two different gene systems control the same trait in the two separate lines, and this is highly unlikely. Now the breeder has produced a hybrid strain that breeds true for large size, early maturation, large sweet-smelling calyxes, and high THC level. The goal has been reached!
Reply With Quote
  #1120  
Old 11-01-2019, 01:12 PM
Paky One's Avatar
Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2016
Posts: 60
Default

What did Nev post in the present thread!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nevil View Post
[...]
A common practise in breeding IBLs is to put siblings into separate groups and inbreed them for 3-5 generations before bring them back together again. Each line can focus on one primary trait, allowing for more rapid advancement of the selected trait. Once the separate IBLs are put together again, only plants that possess all of the bred for characteristics are used for further breeding and the process begins again. Ideally, the recombined lines of the IBL should be sold at this point. Largely however, it's a moot point as few inbred lines are offered to the market by breeders. IBLs are used by breeders to produce hybrids or polyhybrids in order to combine as many of the dominant positive traits as possible in one variety. Hybrid vigour is the biggest contributing factor, when it comes to yield and my experience has shown that the market demands yield (whilst at the same time paying lip-service to the idea of pure strains). The pure strains that I put out in the past were not popular due to the fact that they couldn't compete against the hybrids in many respects.
[...]
N.
And by the way, NH has never been proposed other than as an intraspecific F1 hybrid...

How could it be otherwise???
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 06:55 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
All rights reserved, MR NICE SEEDBANK, NL