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  #1  
Old 02-14-2019, 04:59 PM
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Default Contrarian pollen chucking

I use the term "pollen chucker" instead of breeder because it would be presumptuous of me to refer to myself with the same term used to describe Shantibaba, Nevil, Luther, etc.

I've been growing weed and chucking pollen since legalization in Massachusetts two years ago, and I've learned much during my journey. I have come to love sativas, certainly not for their ease of growth but for their effect. I prefer the tastes and effects of old school smoke over the hyped strains of today and last month, last year, last decade. I've read a lot of people online ask the question, "Why does weed today seem so homogeneous and bland in effect, and what happened to that giggle reefer I used to smoke?"

It is my considered opinion that the large gulf in the quality of the effect between that 70s weed and today's polyhybrids is due to the length of flowering time. Commercial interests dictate that flower times be less than 8 weeks, certainly no more than 10-12, and the one thing that almost all breeders have in common is that they select for short flower time. But the sativas we smoked in the 1970s flowered under the tropical sun for 14-20 weeks! You just can't rush Mother Nature.

So now I'm a contrarian. Because I have absolutely no interest in selling weed, I am unencumbered by a need to plant another crop every 8 weeks. As such, I now select for long duration flower time. I think that's where the real magic is, in both the effect and in the aromas. It helps that I detest trimming and doing it twice a year beats the hell out of doing it every 8-10 weeks.

I'm not putting down everyone else who selects for quick flowering time, but I'm going to be swimming upstream.
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  #2  
Old 02-14-2019, 08:18 PM
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nice in theory, but the real world will straighten you out.

i like sativas also, but i have only been experiencing them lately.
and they arent as good as some of the older stuff.

you have to realize that while a shorter flowering time has its benefits, you would have to completely ignore all other aspects of the plant in order to breed for flower time.
no one does this.
there are always secondary factors to determine "the best"

while i appreciate your desire to search for what it is you are looking for,
i would like to inform you that i have not seen anything more special in 4-6 month flowering plants than i have seen in a 67 day plant.
that plant was a jack herer, and got the majority of its quality from the haze, but also benefited from the NL5 and Skunk.
this was an improvement in many aspects, and without smoking the pure haze it decended from, i couldnt tell you what the drawbacks were.

rather than flowering time as a main concern, i would advise you to judge the quality of the herb, regardless of flowering time.

what you describe, is the lack of success by breeders of today, to bring the quality you are looking for into a hybrid that can compete with the other fast flowering varieties on the market.
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  #3  
Old 02-15-2019, 03:19 AM
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great topic for a thread Marcus. As I've always been curious about what is really the difference of what we perceive to be a Sativa to what we perceive to be an indica.

My first post ever on a weed forum was this question/statement on the Grail Thread like 8 years ago... it didn't get any responses and I still find it to be a mystery...

"Sativa effects are said to be soaring, cerebral, electric, and w/o a ceiling to it. An indica high seems to have a more grounded effect, relaxing and more "stone" to it.

So what is it that makes these 2 sides of cannabis different in their highs? Is it the ratio of thc to cbd? Does the longer flowering times produce a more ripe or distilled or complex gland? So when breeding, is it is truly possible to have the quality high of a top notch sativa with the shorter flowering times of an indica?"


I think the nice highs from sativas has to do with the longer flowering times also, but I am open to short flowering sativas. Wasn't that the point of DJ Short's Flo keeper?
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  #4  
Old 02-15-2019, 01:48 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jack hairy View Post
you have to realize that while a shorter flowering time has its benefits, you would have to completely ignore all other aspects of the plant in order to breed for flower time.
no one does this.
there are always secondary factors to determine "the best"

rather than flowering time as a main concern, i would advise you to judge the quality of the herb, regardless of flowering time.
Spot on. I was unclear on this: I do not intend to select solely on flowering time, and will of course also select on sexual stability and quality of effect, along with some other tertiary criteria. But I will now actively choose to grow long-flowering plants over shorter flowering ones. Case in point, I told a friend with a huge seed stash I was interested in some classic Thai, and he offered me my choice of chocolate Thai or lemon Thai if I reproduce them and return some seeds to him. I'll choose the chocolate Thai because I understand it flowers for 16 weeks compared to the lemon Thai which should be done by week 12.

Quote:
Originally Posted by jack hairy View Post
what you describe, is the lack of success by breeders of today, to bring the quality you are looking for into a hybrid that can compete with the other fast flowering varieties on the market.
I think what I'm describing is the result of 40 years of breeders selecting for short flower time. Admittedly, I don't have anywhere near the (growing) experience most of you do, but I have some pretty strong anecdotal evidence to back up my contrarian ideals. My favorite plant in each of my last two grows, by a significant margin, was the one that went 18 and 20 weeks. I'm getting the aromas and effects I'm looking for there. I suspect many others looking for sativa type highs have experienced this; the plant with the best effect was the last one to finish. I've also noticed that the lingering smell of excellent weed readily comes from these 16+ week plants; I have yet to experience lingering churchy aromas from a 10-week plant.

A lot of it is about chemical kinetics; some reactions take longer than others. I hypothesize that the cannabinoid profiles and terpenes I want will be more prevalent amongst longer-flowering plants. My limited anecdotal experience backs this up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CannaFish View Post
My first post ever on a weed forum was this question/statement on the Grail Thread like 8 years ago... it didn't get any responses and I still find it to be a mystery...

"Sativa effects are said to be soaring, cerebral, electric, and w/o a ceiling to it. An indica high seems to have a more grounded effect, relaxing and more "stone" to it.

So what is it that makes these 2 sides of cannabis different in their highs? Is it the ratio of thc to cbd? Does the longer flowering times produce a more ripe or distilled or complex gland? So when breeding, is it is truly possible to have the quality high of a top notch sativa with the shorter flowering times of an indica?"


I think the nice highs from sativas has to do with the longer flowering times also, but I am open to short flowering sativas. Wasn't that the point of DJ Short's Flo keeper?
Great question, Fish. I think it has to do with the production of cannabinoids and terpenes in the trichomes; the longer a plant flowers the more possibilities for unique and desirable results are revealed.

Look what Shanti says in some of the MNS strain descriptions:

Angel's Breathe: "Discard any plants going more than 13 weeks as they will be unpractical for most growers."

Neville's Haze: "Indoors you should select anything that goes up until 16 weeks flowering time and kill any others as they are not practical for indoor rooms. "

The Doors: "Indoors you should select anything that goes up until 16 weeks flowering time and kill any others as they are not practical for indoor rooms. "

Damn, would I love to have a shot at flowering some of the stuff that Shanti has thrown in the compost heap.
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  #5  
Old 02-15-2019, 02:22 PM
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Back in the stone age, I always tended to pick exotic bag seed to grow out. I can definitely say longer flowering doesn't necessarily mean better.

I don't really agree with Jack though. Appearance seems to trump every other aspect for many breeders. Bag appeal is king, effects are somewhere down the list under speed of flowering and yield. However, there are some patient breeders who focus on less tangible traits like a soft, clear high.

I recently ran a couple of Acapulco Gold. Currently, I have a pretty high tolerance to cannabis, have damaged lungs, and have a hard time getting enough out of mild flowers to consume it in that form so I have been extracting the oil and using that. Had I only smoked or vaped the flowers, I would have binned it as unworthy. As oil, it is superlative. Uplifting, not racy, clear as a bell, sunshine weed. I have been keeping a clone, even though I may never run it again until I can grow it outside. It's a long flowering plant that would yield pound plants without much effort to get there.
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  #6  
Old 02-15-2019, 06:04 PM
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i didnt say they only select for short flowering, maybe thats what marcus is suggesting.
i said to do that, they would have to ignore other aspects, like appeal.
i dont think anyone is doing that.
it is always going to be a combination of positive factors that lead a person to select the plant they think is the best out of any given group.

what i think shanti is even alluding to in those quotes, is that he did a good enough job bringing the traits down into a more reasonable flowering time, that the longer flowering plants are not going to be any more special than the good, faster plants (<16 weeks)

just like right now, im not letting flowering time affect my search for quality.
i will flower a 6 month plant if it will give me what i want.
but i havent found anything that is any better just because it has a long flower time.

Last edited by jack hairy; 02-15-2019 at 06:23 PM.
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  #7  
Old 02-20-2019, 09:24 AM
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I was of a similar mind to Marcus when I started my adventure.

By now I have come to the conclusion that we are dealing with nuances in everything and have not come across what I would call "extreme outliers on the spectrum".

Sure there was that Critical Mass pheno that yielded just a bit more than even the next heaviest plant out of 50 and it was the only pheno. Some would call this a considerable outlier, I would call it a nuance. The next plant up yield wise wasn't extremely behind in yield and had other attributes that made me prefer it. Even though there were about 4 phenos very similar to it.


I always considered myself to be selecting for "effect" i.e. the type of high/stone and for potency (strength of effect) first and foremost and that yield and flowering time are very far down the list of selection criteria for me. In fact I was also considering to hone in on long flowering phenos, runts and late showing males and the like.
But I have not found anything worthwhile in these types of phenos so far, when I flowered them out.

On the flipside, I have found many phenos that were just nuances apart from each other and in the end they were selected based on flowering time and yield after all, because in all other categories they were too close together with other phenos (be it effect or potency or smell or what have you).



Like I said, I am still on the lookout for extreme outliers and haven't completely given up on it. Like the G13xAfgHz tester I have going (dubbed GA1) that is now at day 50 of flower and has almost no resin production but has considerably swelled up in the last week or so, while all other plants that are on day 50 of flower have stopped or considerably slowed down the bud swelling (including the other GA pheno on day 50 of flower, GA4) and have been in resin production mode for quite a while now.
My hope for the GA1 is that it will continue to swell for a few more days/weeks and then kick into resin production and finish flowering towards the 100 day mark.
If that is the case, I would expect that the GA1 will considerably outperform the GA4 in almost every aspect, safe for flowering time.
In that case, I think most people, not only me, would select for the GA1 pheno. The same way that most people wouldn't select the 70 day pheno in a SSH pack over the 100 day pheno, if the 100 day pheno yields more, is more potent and just "better" in every other category.



That all being said, I hear you. If breeders don't gear their selection towards effect/potency or the like but indeed have their top priority as yield and flowering time (which I believe is the top priority for the vast majority of "breeders"), then that will obviously have an effect on the gene pool in the long term.
And I believe we are at that point already.


What is left to do is for small timers like you and me to go against the grain and set different priorities, leading to different selection, different breeding and different genes being preserved/carried forward in the gene pool.


The story of AK47 for example makes me belief that small timers like us have a more important task on our hand than we think. AK47 was NOT preserved and lost forever by its original breeders because they were doing exactly what we discussed: Prioritizing yield and short flowering times over everything else. That's how they came out with "The Chronic" which then later replaced AK47 in their crosses which ruined their reputation and stable.
The only way we could have kept/preserved the unique properties that made AK47 so outstanding would have been small time underground growers/breeders selecting for other things than yield and short flowering time and preserve those genetics in the pool going forward.
Didn't happen and now the genetics are lost to the world for good (unless someone eventually emerges from the woodworks with an IBL or the like, which I doubt will happen. See the C99 story for a bleak outlook...).



So yeah, I am with you, go against the grain, select for what you think is good/"right" and "best" and trust your instincts. By instinctively wanting to select for and prioritize other characteristics/properties in the plant than 95% of the "breeders" out there, you are already doing us all a great service/favor, if you do indeed preserve what you select/breed for the future.

But I would be curious as to what you have found. Like I said, when I started I was expecting plants that were simply on another level/in another league than the other phenos in terms of for example effect and potency, or smell and taste. But so far I have only found nuanced differences. Plants being slightly more potent or having slightly different effects on me or smelling slightly more or having a slight taste on the in/exhale etc. etc.

Like I said, still haven't given up on finding extreme outliers but I am getting more and more to the point where I do include flowering time and yield in my selection because the rest seems just slight/nuanced differences...

Stay frosty my friends
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  #8  
Old 02-20-2019, 12:45 PM
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thats why i think it is important to meet other growers and sample stuff other than what you have come across.

its about experience.
if you dont know what a strain is capable of, then you might settle for one of the many nuanced plants that can be found, but are overall very similar.
if you have seen something else out of a strain, then you know what is possible, and you wont settle for anything less.

i know that stuff is out there, i had two plants like that within a two year period.
one was unknown bagseed, the other was a jack herer.
i really didnt think it would be this hard to find something else like them.

all you can do is continue on with the best that you can find at the moment, until something else comes along.

the more seed you pop, the more chances you have to find what makes you happy.
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Old 02-22-2019, 07:12 AM
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Since I can't get in touch with other growers in person aside from places like MNS online, I keep finding myself comparing what I discover to what the coffeeshop scene offers in the Netherlands.
Not really the greatest comparison, as I doubt there are many extreme outliers being grown for sale in coffeeshops...

But I do remember once posting about the Neville's Haze I smoked from "De Dampkring" in Amsterdam and talking about my hopes/expectations of being able to coax more out of the strain when popping enough seeds.
And people over on IC said that one of the head growers for de dampkring is an ex forum member and his neville's haze should be very good.
Which would bring me back to "nuances"...


So I agree, and hope it will happen for me someday, that the best method is to exchange experiences, seeds, cuts, etc. with other growers in person.
Until me and others can though, exchanging pictures and stories online is all we can do I suppose...
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  #10  
Old 02-23-2019, 05:10 AM
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It shouldnt surprise me, but after growing the C5 in organic soil and not having it turn out as good as id like, im starting to think the main problem with the lack of quality in what ive been growing lately is from the methods. until now ive been thinking its the genetics.
now i am starting to think it was a combination of the special genetics and the method that grew it and allowed it to excel in the way that it did.

ive had three total plants that had this chemical fuel vapor fume type smell coming from them as soon as they form resin on leaves. it stands out and should make early selection easier.
all of these plants were grown in hydroton.
The C5 can be pretty nice grown in rockwool.

we know that hydro can excel in oxygen delivery that soil can never touch.
for this or as an additional fact we know hydro can outyield soil grown.
so i dont know what im doing messing around with dirt anymore.
maybe the quality in hydro also cannot be matched with soil?
maybe certain strains/plants are able to excel in hydro in a way that they wont express in soil?
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