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  #21  
Old 01-15-2019, 08:38 AM
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I think it is a similar deal with Cannabis as it is with Mycorrhizae...

Mycos are as old as time itself. They are everywhere in the soil, worldwide and have been living in symbiosis with all forms of plant life since the dawn of time.

I am sure this knowledge had been discovered sometime in history by this culture or the other but until recently, that knowledge was sort of lost or at least not "public". It still isn't if you look at it strictly.
Most people who have nothing to do with farming or gardening are completely mind-blown when I talk to them about Mycos.

Cannabis is similar imho with the difference that we artificially "lost it" or knowledge about it due to prohibition.

So I am fully convinced that Cannabis has always been everywhere, until we artificially got rid of it for that reason or the other.

Have y'all read "The Emperor wears no clothes" by Jack Herrer?

The history of how Cannabis got criminalized is mind blowing.


Basically, from what I could gather, Cannabis was cultivated worldwide, everywhere. Maybe not as big as wheat fields or whatever but there were, no doubt, cannabis cultivations everywhere in small villages etc. etc.

Then the Anslinger/Dupont stuff happened in the US, later on the Bayer stuff with heroin (basically US said "criminalize cannabis or no heroin for y'all") and suddenly Cannabis was criminalized everywhere.

And then it slowly disappeared eveywhere in US and Europe especially.

But before that?

I mean we had Cannabis growing wild in Russian Tundras, adjusting to the climate/environment there for so long that it became Ruderalis which wasn't discovered until the 90s or what.
You really think there was no wild cannabis growing in Europe or the US before?

I highly doubt that it was all brought over from Asia by this or that army or whatever. I am pretty sure it was, like mycorrhizae, everywhere to begin with and later artificially removed due to man made stuff from certain areas.

Only after that does the whole "military this or that brought it here or there" thing come into the equation.

While US and EU did their criminalization thing, countries like Morocco, Afghanistan etc. etc. etc. were not affected by this. So Cannabis held out over there and THEN later was brought back to US, EU and elsewhere by this or that military.


The question that remains, for me, is that if the strains/genetics that survived the criminalization era in the US and EU in countries like Afghanistan are all indigenous landrace strains from these countries or they also at least included genetics that used to be indigenous in US and EU before prohibition.


My bet would be that the indigenous "landrace" strains we had in the US and EU were likely all but eliminated and we later on "repopulated" our countries/continents with stuff from Asia/Middle east and Latin America.

So our current gene pool might very well be all stuff brought over from this or that military through history from Asia/Middle east and Latin America.
But I doubt that's because Cannabis only ever grew there. I am pretty sure it's because we eliminated our own indigenous Cannabis through legislation, completely forgot about it and the small Niche of population that still wanted it/was interested in it, could only be served by military personnel smuggling seeds and stuff from their deployments in Asia/Middle East and Latin America.



And that is why I believe in Greece in particular, there surely used to be indigenous Cannabis. I am quite convinced the whole Oracle of Delphi stuff and the like, the priests back then etc. etc. were all using indigenous Cannabis.
But I would be surprised if these indigenous landrace strains still exist. Hope of course is there but I highly doubt it.
I believe it was all eliminated, then there was no Cannabis in US and EU for a long time (only niche/underground stuff) and then it was re-introduced from Asia/Middle East and Latin America.
So it wouldn't surprise me if what survived to this day is all Asian/Middle Eastern and Latin American genetics (which might well include some US/EU genetics from way back when).

But I do still hope that this or that villager in this or that country still has something from before all that. Would surprise me though. I doubt farmers back then were aware of how desired these sort of genetics would become one day.
I am sure to them it was nothing special, just hemp/cannabis so why would you go through a lot of trouble and risk legal ramifications to preserve these strains for decades?


Much more likely that we killed of a good portion of the gene pool with these messed up moves in history and now all that is left is what survived in Asia/Middle East and Latin America during that time.


One thing I forgot to mention in all my ranting is Africa!

I think Africa holds a lot of genetic potential with regards to Cannabis.
You can see hints of that with Durban Poison and Malawi, Congolese etc.
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  #22  
Old 01-15-2019, 10:44 PM
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Fungi have not quite been around since the dawn of time. Plants are older, actually. Plants, animals and fungi all evolved from the same complex cells called eukaryotes. Eukaryote cells contain a distinct, membrane-bound nucleus. They first appeared about 1.5 to 2 billion years ago and evolved from simpler bacteria. They evolved from one cell to become multicell. Plants split off first about 1 billion years ago from our line. Thus we as animals are more closely related to fungi (and slime mold) than to plants. Not mush really happened until the Cambrian explosion 500 million years ago. Then plants came on land, and animals and fungi followed. Several extinction cycles happened as well. In the end though, plants, fungi and animals evolved together in the water and on land going back about a billion years. That is about 1/4 of the age of the earth, which is about 4.5 billion years old now.

As far as the banning of weed worldwide, that actually did not start in the US as is commonly thought now. It started in in Latin America very early on. In Mexico in particular, weed got a bad wrap starting around 1880 and there were many publications there about the bad influence of weed and the medical implications. They considered it a hard drug even then. That was way before the several global medical conventions occurred and they suggested banning weed worldwide. That was in the 1920s. Mexico had been on a roll to get rid of weed for 50 years before that. California banned weed in 1910. Mexico banned weed in 1920. The US did not ban weed until 1937.

As for Cannabis being in the New World before humans came here? It was not. There is no evidence of Cannabis in North or South America previous to modern times. There were no wild stands of Cannabis in the New World. Nor did the tribes bring it here from Siberia through Alaska. They were hunter gatherers, and not farmers. Farming was a technological breakthrough that came by way of the migration of my ancestors, the Neolithic farmers into Europe about 12,000 years ago from the Black Sea region. I have done extensive yDNA testing, and my clade, R1b/U-106 were hunters in Siberia and then migrated from Siberia to the Caspian Sea area, then west along the north shore of the Black Sea, and into eastern Europe and then north to wind up in what is now Holland. They brought farming with them to west Europe, and these farming populations displaced and inter-bred with the earlier European populations of hunter gatherers that were there before them. They also brought with them the modern languages of Europe from India. Only the Basque language is from the earlier pre-farming era in Europe.

So it seems apparent to me that the Neolithic farmers likely would have brought Cannabis seeds with them into west Europe from the east, and that there were also wild strains of Cannabis in Europe already when they got there. Archeological evidence supports this, as does human genetics and language analysis. Certainly by the time of ancient Egypt, Mesopotamia, Greece, Rome, Persia, and Carthage, Cannabis growing and use was rampant for making cloth, sails, rope, seed oil, and for medicinal purposes. After that, the re-discovery of the new world brought Cannabis to the Americas, as early (recorded in Spanish records) as 1510 in the form of "Manila Hemp" from the Philippines. I have to re-iterate that there is no archeological evidence that hops or Cannabis was in the New World before 1500. It may well have been here before that time in earlier eras and gone extinct, as had camels, horses, and other life forms here previously.

Two types of Cannabis dominated in the early 16th and 17th century in the Americas. Those were strains from Europe brought here from Europe and grown in the English, Dutch and Spanish Colonies from New England to Florida. The other were Manila Hemp brought to west Mexico and Chile from the Philippines. As for what was the origin of SW Mexican landraces, genetic analysis says they are most closely related to strains from South India. Later Colombian strains are genetically more related to strains from SE Asia. Wild hemp strains have become established as a wild plant in the Midwest US as a result of mass plantings of hemp during WWII. No other wild strains are found here that I am aware of. Nor have there been any reports of any wild strains of hemp fund in the Americas by any explorers, and they were very good at exploring everything and everything in a search for new strains of plants when they got here from Europe. Especially plants as vital as hemp. They took Cocoa, Vanilla, Tomatoes, Potatoes, etc. from the new world and planted them worldwide. They also brought Hemp with them to the new world, a vital resource in the days of sailing ships.
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  #23  
Old 01-15-2019, 11:27 PM
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Now the above said, in Europe things were different. Like in the Americas, Hemp was considered separate from Marijuana. Same plant, but one made good fiber and seed oil, and the other got you high. From about 1880 on the prohibition movement took hold, and minds were warped from propaganda. That stemmed from the view of the Catholic Church, which to this day proclaims that the taking of Cannabis is a SIN! Evil mother fuckers! In that same time frame, in Mexico it was a prevailing paradigm of the upper classes that Marihuana was evil and should be banned. And so the banning began. If you look at the history of hashish making, it followed the banning and moved from Turkey and Egypt to Greece and from Greece to Lebanon, and from Lebanon to Morocco. In the places that it was banned, eradication efforts were extensive. In Lebanon that failed, and it is still grown there. It is also still grown and made in Morocco. In Greece it has become virtually extinct, as was the case in Italy, Turkey and Egypt. More recently eradication has taken place in Mexico and Colombia with Paraquat spraying, and with eradication efforts in Thailand.

As far as messing up the gene pool with Cannabis, at least the psychotropic strains, I believe that the Dutch and NorCal indica hybrids have done far far more to disrupt and replace the landraces and indigenous genetics. Arjan and Co. have sent gobs of feminized beans to the remote places of the earth. In the meantime the likes of Arjan and Watson have collected huge amounts of landrace strains and are hoarding them. David Watson told me once that he had over one metric ton of seeds in his personal collection. Maybe he was boasting, I do not know. But that is what he said. I know that GHS has a huge vault of seeds, and they do not sell or distribute any landrace genetics. Quite on purpose, according to my conversations with several of the breeders at GHS. All from greed and the love of money. And to keep ahead of competition. Arjan in one of his latest videos was asked if he shared any of his profits with the locals that he gathered landrace seeds from. He said simply, "It does not work that way".

So many strains are out there, but in vaults. Or in places like my freezer. I trade lots of landrace and heirloom seeds with people around the world. I will continue to do so. I do not sell any beans, nor have I other than what was in bag weed back in the day. I have had many offers to buy them. I have found one source of Greek Kalamata Red, and I am waiting to get my hands on them. That strain has been the most elusive in my search for landraces. Lately I have sourced 2 strains of Cambo Red, Congo Black, Saipan, Senegal, Transkei, Swazi, New Guinea, and Moroccan. Also I have gotten another Jamaican sativa landrace, and several more Indian landraces and heirlooms from places like Kerala, Sikkim, Yamuna, Azad-Kashmere, and Malana. Talk about tiny little seeds! I thought that my Zac Purple were tiny seeds. I have also found heirlooms like Cali-O, Mendo Prups, and Indiana Bubblegum. Oddly these heirlooms are becoming as extinct and hard to find as the landraces. People grow them and move onto the latest Iced Watermelon Gorilla Vanilla Frost x Cinderella Champagne Monster Headband Yeti OG hybrid. The hybrids are all becoming one big melted pot of a generic strain, with 'everything' in them. Blue Dream is a classic example. A mutt.
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  #24  
Old 01-16-2019, 09:40 AM
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Well I guess you are right with the mycos, since they wouldn't be able to exist without plants since they specifically live in symbiosis.
Was just going by what I heard/read in passing that there were fungal colonizations on the planet before plant life emerged. Might have also mistaken that though. Just throwing stuff out the way I remember/understood it and formed my opinion in my mind to see what bounces back from others like Big Sur here to continue sharpening/fine tuning my opinion as I go along

With regards to cannabis growing worldwide before or not:
Tough to say, what you say sounds very plausible and well researched but does it necessarily take away from what i suggested? That there was cannabis growing wild everywhere before we settled and started farming and brought this or that strain of cannabis from here to there?

I couldn't say if there was any cannabis growing wildly in the new world before settlement, I was just imagining that it did.

Which doesn't take away from the Europeans or others bringing over their "not so wild" growing cannabis strains and eliminating the wild ones through time since they have their "better hemp strains" and the like brought over.


Either way, it doesn't really matter, does it?
What is more relevant is what you wrote and how we ended up where we currently are.

And don't get me started on Arjan and co. and how they royally screwed over the cannabis gene pool by bringing Dutch bulk genetics to heirloom/landrace areas, taking those beans with them and getting these farmers to abandon strains they have grown for how many decades to instead grow the "superior" feminized crap from holland ...

Wasn't completely aware that they are also hoarding these landrace seeds for themselves but that absolutely makes sense.

Also makes a lot of sense when you consider Watson is currently (and has been for a while) working with entities trying to implement CRISPR into cannabis and trademark strains, terpene profiles and active compounds in cannabis.
Works a lot better if you start trademarking from the building blocks of all the modern strains (the landrace strains) than if you start from hybrids like Skunk....


Ugh, churns my stomache. Everything that's wrong with humanity right there...
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  #25  
Old 01-17-2019, 05:47 AM
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Well, it may be that Cannabis was here in the west at one time and then became extinct, like the camel and horse. We all came from the super continent of Pangaea at one time. We humans re-introduced the horse here in 1492. Now they are wild again, and the BLM rounds them up in the winters in the western US to reduce their numbers. Fungi, plants and animals all co-evolved, as did the bacteria and virus, and other life forms. It is an interesting twist that Cannabis evolved to produce cannabinoids, many of which are analogs to hormones in humans. Parallel evolution. Similar compounds made for different reasons and by completely different mechanisms in different life forms. Which if you think about it is rather amazing.

Before the Americas were colonized by whites from Europe and slaves from Africa, the indigenous people here used many types of plants for lots of purposes. They cultivated many local plants. They revered psychotropic plants. They would have grown Cannabis if it was here and left records. There are none. The Aztecs grew a multitude of plants, including Cocoa and vanilla orchids. The Spanish took those and built a monopoly on them in the rest of the planet that still exists today. Make no mistake, the Europeans were here to exploit everything that they found. Sadly, much like Arjan (and Watson) still does today. In one of the latest released GHS videos, they show Franco in a lab coat selecting seeds in a plastic bag from stainless steel trays in what looked like a long rows of stainless steel cabinets. They also show them growing the latest Congo strain that they had collected with bribes in the wild, and testing it for THCv. They were all grinning that it had the highest THCv tested in any plant.

Last I looked, GHS only sells fems and autos. No regular beans. So not only do they not sell the landrace genetics that they collect, they have locked up all the hybrids that they have made as well by only releasing fem seeds. Arjan in some other videos claims that the rest of the world should grow his feminized beans. Just buy them every year. Watson claims to not do any GMO and that none exist in Cannabis, but then what is CRISPR? Pretty fine line if you ask me. But I am a landrace collector, grower and IBL breeder. I do not make any money selling beans or hybrids. I trade them. I only sell clones to medical growers here, to make landraces available and to parent future hybrids by local growers and expand the local gene pool. Quite opposite intentions. I will likely lose out in the end. Greed prevails eternal.
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Last edited by Big Sur; 01-17-2019 at 05:51 AM.
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  #26  
Old 01-17-2019, 08:54 AM
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CRISPR is GMO ...

I confronted him (along with some others) over at IC when the discussion came up last year.

He was basically going "y'all's brains simply can't understand the science"-route and tried to "explain" how CRISPR is not GMO because it is basically GMO-light/zero and thus not GMO...

When I summarized it thusly (and others echoed):
"So basically you are saying CRISPR canna is not GMO canna because it is basically GMO canna light/zero? That sounds to me like it is GMO canna..."

He basically reclused himself and left the chat/conversation reverting back to "y'all's brains are just not developed enough to understand the fine differences in science" or sth


I had a few PMs with him and at first was a bit starstruck to be honest. Similar to when I had a brief chat with Shanti. Here's one of the dudes that not only lived through but was central to part of history/stories I have been living and have been influencing my life for so many years! All the stuff he must know!"
And stuff he knew indeed. Lots. Guy ain't dumb, dude's resourceful, dude had unique insights into many things cannabis that most of us never had and never will.

But dude's also an asshole, selling his soul and ours along with it to the highest bidder.

I bet through his colabs with DEA etc. in the past (imho that is all but proven..) he got under the thumb of the wrong type of people. You know the real gangsters in suits and ties who are legitimated by a branch of government...

And I bet that they don't "make him" do what he does now (and has in the past) but I am sure the only way he can improve his own situation now and going forward is to kiss the ass and cradle the balls of these people.
So he serves up what he can on a silver platter regarding CRISPR, GMO canna etc. etc.

I doubt he will get super rich from it, the real gangsters won't let that happen, but I can imagine that it is a sort of "do this for us and you might get some of your freedom back"-deal...

Don't want to delve more into it but the impression I got from basic research, gathering various opinions about the dude and having a brief chat with him is that he is dangerous for all of us in the canna community and will likely help entities with bad intentions get what they want.


Overall I think Watson is just a very tragic character...

Arjan and his cronies on the other hand?
I don't find anything redeeming about him and doubt he was ever under the thumb of this or that agency...
Neither do I believe he is particularly knowledgeable about cannabis. He is just "kinda good" at marketing. But only short-term. You can see what kind of a dive GHS has taken in recent years. He was "good" at exploiting the market as a short-term money grab. So even in marketing he isn't really good because long-term he hurt his business massively with his crap.

I think Arjan is just the Trump of Cannabis.

Last edited by Broseidon; 01-17-2019 at 08:58 AM.
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  #27  
Old 01-17-2019, 07:54 PM
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Arjan being Trump is a perfect analogy. Bumbling his way through, driven by greed and surrounded by suck-ups. If Arjan is the Trump of Canna, Watson is the Nixon. I had several conversations with Watson over in IC before I was banned there. What bothered me was that he had no real knowledge of what the weed scene was like in Santa Cruz in the 60/70s. It was like he was in a different time and place than I was. So I got to digging and found all kinds of crap about him. Then I figured out that it was all BS about Sacred Seeds, Haze, etc. There was no such thing in Santa Cruz or Corrolitos, where I was during the early 1980s. A sales gimmick to sell his beans to Nevil and spread his greatness. He is now CEO of HortaPharm, and he and Clarke have made big money dealing with GW Pharma and Bayer. Being a compulsive liar will help in that arena. The big ones always float to the top. Watson pops up in corporate weed blurbs with Bayer and Monsanto all the time now. Like in this one:

https://www.globalresearch.ca/the-wa...nnabis/5534771

Corporate controlled weed and GMO from Watson, and fem and auto seeds from Arjan for a new world order of Cannabis. Landraces? We don' need no steenking LANDRACES!
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Last edited by Big Sur; 01-17-2019 at 07:56 PM.
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  #28  
Old 01-18-2019, 11:42 PM
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Industry Pioneer, David Watson, Joins United Cannabis Corp Advisory Board
Watson Will Focus On Breeding Narrow; Leaf Indica And High Terpene Cannabis Varieties

DENVER, CO / ACCESSWIRE / August 24, 2017 / United Cannabis Corporation (CNAB) (the “Company” or “United Cannabis”) today announced the appointment of David Watson to the Company’s Advisory Board.

Mr. Watson, founder and Chief Executive Officer of HortaPharm B.V., the world’s first established medical cannabis corporation, is renowned in the industry. Credited by many for assembling the world’s most comprehensive cannabis-seed library, he is also responsible for securing protection for 29 cultivars under the International Union for the Protection of New Varieties of Plants (UPOV) breeder’s rights.

Selfing, the proprietary breeding technique developed under his guidance, resulted in HortaPharm becoming the world’s first breeder to develop homozygote cannabis, in which both sets of chromosomes are identical. This facilitates the mass production of plants with a consistent cannabinoid profile; a critical factor in pharmaceutical development. To that end, in 1998, HortaPharm began working with GW Pharmaceuticals, assisting it in selecting and supplying the cultivars used to produce Sativex®, and other GW products.
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  #29  
Old 01-20-2019, 03:05 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sur View Post
I am beginning to think that you are right in this regard, at least about them being the same. There seems to be great similarity in the old Mediterranean landrace strains. Particularly between Lebanese, Syrian, West Turkish, and Moroccan strains. These strains all bloom and finish early in September. As for when they were brought to the Mediterranean Sea area and by whom, and from where remains a mystery. If the Greek Kalamata and Red Calabrian are genetic siblings, that would be more cement for the theory that these strains may have been brought to Greece as early as the time of Alexander the Great, and by his armies from somewhere in Persia or India, or in between. It may be that the source strain became extinct at the origin. Or they may have come later in the era of the Romans and Carthaginians. Or with the Arabs and Muslims in the 14th century. Trade was rampant in all those times, between all of those places.

I will be growing some Morocco landraces and maybe some Egyptian ones this year to compare to the Lebanese. The Greek seeds may not get to me in time to grow this year. But now I want to find some of those Italian Red Calabrian seeds.
I love it.

Congrats big sur on what ur doing, you might have already, by yourself, started the cannabis genome conservation project alone on your side.

How could you keep those landraces and make sure they dont die. For exemple for say a specific landrace how yould you proceed to save and propagate it to make surr it survive ?

Would it be a selection of the best male and female of each phenos and additionnal selections, the number of those additionnal selection dependant on how many specific traits or attribute we want to keep alive if needed, so we dont lose the genome, and then make tons of seeds that can be redistributed between some collective ?

Just a though i had

What do you think?

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  #30  
Old 01-20-2019, 03:29 PM
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it's not that simple... doing as you say you would go to a speciation... moreover, a very large population is needed to preserve all genes... if one of the assumptions of the principle of Hardy-Weinberg is violated, the genepool changes
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