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  #11  
Old 06-29-2018, 09:04 PM
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Some Lebanese colas grown here last year...
Beautiful lady Big Sur,very sativa
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  #12  
Old 06-29-2018, 09:16 PM
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Beautiful lady Big Sur,very sativa
Yeah, and that is the indica pheno of the two Lebanese phenos. The sativa pheno has smaller and skinnier leaves.
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  #13  
Old 01-12-2019, 08:42 PM
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what a beautiful weed... I remember with nostalgia the effect a lot trippy and "visual"

Red Kalamata... in Italy called "Red Calabrian"... in the 60s - 80s it was a very common weed... in southern Italy especially in Aspromonte (Calabria mountains) it was cultivated in plantations from thousands and thousands specimens... then in 1990 with the fall of communism in Albania, the 'ndrangheta found it more profitable to import the grass from the neighboring Albanian coasts... the market was literally invaded by Albanian marijuana and in a few years the "red calabrian" disappeared...
nowadays it is practically impossible to find and the immense plantations in southern Italy are all made up of Dutch genetics...
in the years 60-70 thousands of seeds of "red calabrian" were brought to Oz especially in New South Wales... from those seeds in Italy on the Ionian coast, were born clubs and pubs named: Australian pub, Melbourne cafè...LOL
...maybe something remained in Australia
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Last edited by Efesto; 01-12-2019 at 09:09 PM.
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  #14  
Old 01-14-2019, 06:58 AM
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Sorry to hear that history of Italy. Sounds like what is happening in Morocco now. From north to south, native morocco cultivars are being replaced by Pakistani genetics. Maybe not as bad as Dutch, but a similar situation. I had never heard of Red Calabrian before this. Very interesting, and it fits with my new theory of Mediterranean strains.

I found a breeder to trade beans with that has The Red Greek. It may be a while before I can get them though. They are out there. Meanwhile I got some Congolese Black beans. I was looking for Nigerian Black, but this should be close enough. I also scrounged up some rare Cambo Reds, some Saipan beans, and some original old Jamaican sativas and Panama Reds. Trading has been brisk lately.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Efesto View Post
what a beautiful weed... I remember with nostalgia the effect a lot trippy and "visual"

Red Kalamata... in Italy called "Red Calabrian"... in the 60s - 80s it was a very common weed... in southern Italy especially in Aspromonte (Calabria mountains) it was cultivated in plantations from thousands and thousands specimens... then in 1990 with the fall of communism in Albania, the 'ndrangheta found it more profitable to import the grass from the neighboring Albanian coasts... the market was literally invaded by Albanian marijuana and in a few years the "red calabrian" disappeared...
nowadays it is practically impossible to find and the immense plantations in southern Italy are all made up of Dutch genetics...
in the years 60-70 thousands of seeds of "red calabrian" were brought to Oz especially in New South Wales... from those seeds in Italy on the Ionian coast, were born clubs and pubs named: Australian pub, Melbourne cafè...LOL
...maybe something remained in Australia
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  #15  
Old 01-14-2019, 07:16 AM
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Originally Posted by Pillydread View Post
Hello!My idea is that the Greek, Lebanese, southern Italian (the famous red calabresella), the true Albanian strains, are all related, ie they derive from the union of hashplant with fiber hemp(the Mediterranean climate favors the increase of thc also in fiber hemp).
obviously it's just a theory, but fiber crops were once widespread throughout the Mediterranean, and I think it was impossible not to hybridize them with ganjah...
I am beginning to think that you are right in this regard, at least about them being the same. There seems to be great similarity in the old Mediterranean landrace strains. Particularly between Lebanese, Syrian, West Turkish, and Moroccan strains. These strains all bloom and finish early in September. As for when they were brought to the Mediterranean Sea area and by whom, and from where remains a mystery. If the Greek Kalamata and Red Calabrian are genetic siblings, that would be more cement for the theory that these strains may have been brought to Greece as early as the time of Alexander the Great, and by his armies from somewhere in Persia or India, or in between. It may be that the source strain became extinct at the origin. Or they may have come later in the era of the Romans and Carthaginians. Or with the Arabs and Muslims in the 14th century. Trade was rampant in all those times, between all of those places.

I will be growing some Morocco landraces and maybe some Egyptian ones this year to compare to the Lebanese. The Greek seeds may not get to me in time to grow this year. But now I want to find some of those Italian Red Calabrian seeds.
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Last edited by Big Sur; 01-14-2019 at 07:22 AM.
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  #16  
Old 01-14-2019, 04:27 PM
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about Carthaginians,

In 1969 in the port of Marsala in western Sicily near the Egadi islands they discovered a Punic warship. Among the finds they found a wicker basket containing leaves and twigs of cannabis. In some monographs the contents of the basket are described as hashish. (Gianfranco Purpura, professor of Roman law by the University of Palermo "Il relitto punico di Marsala" in: "Marsala, I luoghi e la memoria", Marsala, 1997, pp. 103 106)
It would be interesting to investigate it... to understand if it is hashish or leaves and twigs.
The excavations were directed by archaeologist Honor Frost and progress reports were published annually in the International Journal of Nautical Archeology (London and New York).
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Last edited by Efesto; 01-14-2019 at 04:45 PM.
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2019, 10:28 PM
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Ah, very good then. This would nail down that the Carthaginians had weed, and thus the Mediterranean strains likley go back to the year 200 BC or so, in the least. Which would support the Alexander the Great version, or at least Roman-Carthage era trading version. Or maybe earlier, as is typical in archeology as we find more remains, the dates get set back farther in time. Weed use is obviously older than civilization.

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Originally Posted by Efesto View Post
about Carthaginians,

In 1969 in the port of Marsala in western Sicily near the Egadi islands they discovered a Punic warship. Among the finds they found a wicker basket containing leaves and twigs of cannabis. In some monographs the contents of the basket are described as hashish. (Gianfranco Purpura, professor of Roman law by the University of Palermo "Il relitto punico di Marsala" in: "Marsala, I luoghi e la memoria", Marsala, 1997, pp. 103 106)
It would be interesting to investigate it... to understand if it is hashish or leaves and twigs.
The excavations were directed by archaeologist Honor Frost and progress reports were published annually in the International Journal of Nautical Archeology (London and New York).
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Last edited by Big Sur; 01-15-2019 at 05:57 AM.
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  #18  
Old 01-15-2019, 02:20 AM
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regarding cannabis found on board the Punic ship, I have recovered this clarifying article: https://www.researchgate.net/publica..._con_marihuana

Abstract
El pueblo púnico construyó Cartago en el norte de África y dominó el Mediterráneo desde el siglo XI hasta el siglo VIII a. C. Fueron una potencia militar hasta que los romanos terminaron con ellos en tres guerras entre los siglos III y II a. C. El cáñamo se usaba principalmente para calafatear los cascos de los barcos y para hacer cuerdas… pero también se consumía. ¿Para qué? Eso es lo que veremos en este artículo.
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  #19  
Old 01-15-2019, 03:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Big Sur View Post
Ah, very good then. This would nail down that the Carthaginians had weed, and thus the Mediterranean strains likley go back to at least the year 200 BC or so, in the least. Which would support the Alexander the Great version, or at least Roman-Carthage era trading version. Or maybe earlier, as is typical in archeology as we find more remains. I think that weed use is as old as civilization, if not older.
to the detriment of what many scientists continue to report, still convinced that cannabis has been brought by man from Asia to Europe, modern polynimetric data have shown that Cannabis was present in Europe since the late Miocene:
Pollen and a fossil seed dated to the Late Miocene (11-6 million years ago) were found in Bulgaria; fossil pollen dated to Eoppleistocene (1.8-1.2 million years ago) was recognized in Russian, Romanian and Kazakhstan deposits; with dates of 200-100 thousand years ago, fossil pollen was identified (through analytical-statistical studies) in Italy and Poland, and with dates of 70-18 thousand years ago in Bulgaria, Russia, Estonia, Greece and Ukraine (McPartland et al., 2018).
For example, in Italy, the most ancient data of the presence of cannabis in the wild have been found for now: in the lake of Albano, in the province of Rome, with a date of 11.500 BC. (Mercuri et al., 2002); follow the date of 9000 B.C. of the Lake of Monticchio, in the province of Potenza (Huntley et al, 1996), and that of 7000 BC. in the Lake Nemi region, also in the province of Rome (Mercuri et al., 2002).
In Asia, the most ancient archaeobotanical datum so far found is Cannabis pollen present in sediments of Lake Baikal dated 13000-11.300 BC. (Tarasov et al., 2007). Molodkov & Bolikhovskaya (2006) reported the presence of Cannabis sp. Pollen. in North-Asian deposits with very ancient dates, associated with the "Late Moscow" interstadial warming period 158,000-153,000 years ago.

In the study "Archeologia of Cannabis", the author signals the numerous inaccurate data of different scientific and academic studies that are added to the discordance between the researchers on the origins of cannabis. Cites as an example the study by Robert Clarke and Mark Merlin, Cannabis. Evolution and Ethnobotany full of incorrect data and serious methodological misconduct. Reporting in the article only some cases related to the archaeological aspects of Cannabis (see link in the bibliography to learn more)

sources:
"The long history of Cannabis and its cultivation by the Romans in central Italy, shown by pollen records from Lago Albano and Lago di Nemi" MERCURI A.M. https://www.researchgate.net/publica...d_Lago_di_Nemi

"Cannabis in the ancient Europe" GIORGIO SAMORINI

"Archaeology of Cannabis" GIORGIO SAMORINI
https://samorini.it/archeologia/euro...antica-europa/
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Last edited by Efesto; 01-25-2019 at 01:01 AM.
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  #20  
Old 01-15-2019, 06:58 AM
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I love it!!!! This represents a new historical and anthropological, "neolithic history of Cannabis". And as you say, in opposition to what is commonly written and published to date (the Asian history that everyone thinks is correct). The history of the Roman use of Cannabis is a very interesting read. Thanks for that. Using Google translate, the web site about Cannabis in ancient Europe is even more interesting. I can read Spanish, but not Italian. But I love it! I read Clarke's book recently and the Evolution of Cannabis, and found it rather misleading, even from what I know. I am an anthropology buff. If I had another life to live, I would get my PhD in Physical Anthropology.

A minimum timeline of Cannabis in Europe:

200 BC: The Romans and Carthaginians grew it and used it. Back to at least the times of the Punic Wars, circa 200 BC. Old school science claimed that the Greeks, Romans or later Arabs were the distributors of Cannabis in Europe from Asia Minor.

However, the above claims are contradicted by these archeological findings:

1,700 BC Hemp seeds found in a grave in Romania

2,000 BC Woven hemp mats found in a woman's grave in Spain

3,300 BC Cannabis seeds found in Lithuania archeological dig

3,800 BC Hemp leaf imprints found on ceramics in central Europe along the Danube River

4,500 BC, Cannabis pollen found in Italy, from likely cultivation there at that time

5,600 BC: Hemp pollen found in Estonia along river banks

7,000-6,000 BC: Hemp seeds found in Romania in archeological digs

So my read from this is that Cannabis cultivation was frikk'in rampant in Europe going back at least 8,000 years, and it grew wild there before that. So Cannabis strains in the Mediterranean area are (or were) indigenous to that area. They were not brought in from Asia Minor, or anywhere else in Asia... by the Greeks, the Romans or the Arabs. Cannabis was already present and being cultivated when the ancient civilizations rose up in Europe!
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Last edited by Big Sur; 01-15-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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