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  #21  
Old 08-26-2018, 02:42 AM
Vlad the Inhaler's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer Bud View Post
G `day Shanti

OK Shanti my friend ...

If it is a problem then why are you still using it ?

What level does it become a problem ?

At what stage of flower do you discontinue using it . how do you decide this ?

Like I said previously I know about this Urban Rumour .
I took interest in the thread . 5 YEARS AGO .

TheCleanGame
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11-14-2013, 07:17 AM




https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=274706


5 years and counting .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
Hi EB.
You suggest neem toxicity is an urban rumour.
Your link talks of the purported syndrome.
Purported has a really negative connotation.
It practically means fake.
So if you think.neem toxicity is fake, and your link claims the syndrome is fake,
What exactly is your opinion?
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  #22  
Old 08-26-2018, 01:40 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer Bud View Post
G `day Shanti

OK Shanti my friend ...

If it is a problem then why are you still using it ?

What level does it become a problem ?

At what stage of flower do you discontinue using it . how do you decide this ?

Like I said previously I know about this Urban Rumour .
I took interest in the thread . 5 YEARS AGO .

TheCleanGame
Banned

Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: South Park Colorado
Posts: 979

11-14-2013, 07:17 AM




https://www.icmag.com/ic/showthread.php?t=274706


5 years and counting .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
Once upon a time in a far far away land Agent Orange was sprayed from the air and deemed safe. The End.
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  #23  
Old 08-26-2018, 02:23 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glow View Post
Once upon a time in a far far away land Agent Orange was sprayed from the air and deemed safe. The End.
"You down with DDT? Yeah you know me"
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  #24  
Old 08-26-2018, 02:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CannaFish View Post
"You down with DDT? Yeah you know me"
Oh yeah... In the year 1901
God grew tired of current plant biology
He then sent down his only son
to upgrade agricultural technology
Jesus flew down to St. Louis
he showed John Queeny how plants now can grow
Jesus and John now just had to do this
They formed a company called Monsanto

Terminator Seed
It is what we need
It is God's technology
rBST
This substance is the key
to making our cows healthy

.... Take it from there
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  #25  
Old 08-26-2018, 08:32 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Glow View Post
Once upon a time in a far far away land Agent Orange was sprayed from the air and deemed safe. The End.
G `day Glow

As far as I know ,Neem has been used in the far off land known as India for a very long time .

I 1st heard of Neem oil 25 years ago from an organic farmer . Haven`t heard of azadarachtin poisoning other than from IC mag . Or now The Clean Game`s Blog .

Doesn`t mean it isn`t possible . But a scientist referring to anecdotes from a guy on the net,
hmmm .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
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  #26  
Old 08-26-2018, 11:29 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer Bud View Post
G `day Glow

As far as I know ,Neem has been used in the far off land known as India for a very long time .

I 1st heard of Neem oil 25 years ago from an organic farmer . Haven`t heard of azadarachtin poisoning other than from IC mag . Or now The Clean Game`s Blog .

Doesn`t mean it isn`t possible . But a scientist referring to anecdotes from a guy on the net,
hmmm .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
Hey I sort of agree, the person who wrote the article in question is making some almost desperate attempts at linking A to B without any documented supporting evidence. However, as SB rightly points out often there is a case and sometimes it isn't scientifically supported until long after the murmurs lead to an investigation. Take Glyphosate for example.

That said, there are actually lots of scientific reports of neem poisoning. Just a couple of "science" links I have posted which you clearly chose not to read or missed.

Some more:

"There are numerous human case reports as well as animal studies of Neem extract revealing toxic effects including toxic encephalopathy and status epilepticus [8,9], Reye┬’s like syndrome of microvesicular fatty liver [10,11] and metabolic acidosis [12]. Almost all of these case reports are from children receiving Neem oil and the case fatality rate was high. In vitro experiments have demonstrated a possible mechanism for Neem oil toxicity namely uncoupling of mitochondrial oxidative phosphorylation. These extracts have also been found to decrease intramitochondrial levels of acetyl CoA in rat liver mitochondria, which may explain the metabolic screen results in this patient [13]."https://www.omicsonline.org/neem-extract-poisoning-as-a-cause-of-renal-tubular-acidosis-2161-0495.1000112.php?aid=3230

And:

"In children, there are several case reports of Neem oil poisoning causing vomiting, hepatic toxicity, metabolic acidosis, and encephalopathy.[2,3,4] Lai et al., reported 22 cases of neem oil poisoning in infants, who were given single doses of Neem oil (few drops to 5 ml), presented with features of toxic encephalopathy, metabolic acidosis, and hepatic toxicity. The infants recovered completely with supportive treatment.[3] Sundaravalli et al., in a case series of 12 children with neem oil poisoning, who were given single dose of Neem oil (25-60 ml), reported fatality in 10 cases with features of toxic encephalopathy and metabolic acidosis.[4] Sinnaih et al., reported Reyes┬–like syndrome in fatal cases of Neem oil poisoning in a case series of 13 children.[2]" https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3841499/

And:

"Poisoning incidents
Neem seed oil produced occasional diarrhea, nausea, and general discomfort when given orally as an anthelmintic (see Jacobson, 1989). Neem leaf extract-poisonings with ventricular fibrillation and cardiac arrest have occasionally been reported ().

Sinniah and Baskaran (1981) summarized 13, including two fatal, poisoning cases due to neem seed oil. Five to ten milliliters of this traditional remedy, also called margosa or kohomba oil, given orally to children against minor ailments caused vomiting, drowsiness, tachypnea with acidotic respiration, polymorphonuclear leukocytosis, and encephalopathy that developed within hours of ingestion. Seizures, associated with coma, also developed in some cases. Autopsy demonstrated pronounced fatty acid infiltration of the liver and proximal renal tubules, with mitochondrial damage and cerebral edema, changes consistent with Reye’s syndrome. Follow-up model studies with mice suggested that the syndrome could be associated with long-chain fatty acid or lipid components of the oil provoking mitoses of hepatocytes within 30 min after ingestion, hypertrophy of endoplasmic reticulum, and loss of liver glycogen, which was consistent with fat accumulation in the liver cells (). In model studies with rat liver, Trost and Lemasters (1996) proposed that the pathogenesis of Reye’s syndrome, caused by chemicals such as salicylic acid, valproic acid and neem oil, is associated with the induction of mitochondrial permeability translation. The induction effect could be blocked by cyclosporin A." https://www.sciencedirect.com/scienc...23743671000033

So firstly, on this: Haven`t heard of azadarachtin poisoning other than from IC mag .

You then need to read more scientific papers because loads of cases of neem poisoning are documented in "science".

So, we then need to accept that where an individual is exposed to high levels of neem there is a potential for poisoning. To deny this is to say the Earth is flat. And science quite frankly doesn't give a shit what you think:-)

On this:

"Doesn`t mean it isn`t possible . But a scientist referring to anecdotes from a guy on the net,
hmmm . "

Clearly it is possible hey?

If you are referring to me as the "scientist" you will find I never use forums as a source of reliable scientific information. What you will instead find is the sources of information I used were scientific papers which I linked you to but given you now are saying "Haven`t heard of azadarachtin poisoning" really just tells me you aren't reading anyone's information but instead have an axe to grind while at the same time coming across as a flat-earther.

On this: " As far as I know ,Neem has been used in the far off land known as India for a very long time ."

Yes and elsewhere. BTW there are loads of documented poisoning cases from India.

Thanks for sharing.

Last edited by Glow; 08-26-2018 at 11:41 PM.
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  #27  
Old 08-27-2018, 12:53 AM
Vlad the Inhaler's Avatar
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Elmer Bud View Post
G `day Glow

As far as I know ,Neem has been used in the far off land known as India for a very long time .

I 1st heard of Neem oil 25 years ago from an organic farmer . Haven`t heard of azadarachtin poisoning other than from IC mag . Or now The Clean Game`s Blog .

Doesn`t mean it isn`t possible . But a scientist referring to anecdotes from a guy on the net,
hmmm .

Thanks for sharin

EB .
So you'll just keep dropping anecdotes?
You haven't shown anything to prove your opinion.
Excuse me for not letting it go EB.
But you come across a bit hypocritical.
What did you say about random opinions on the internet?

Last edited by Vlad the Inhaler; 08-27-2018 at 01:01 AM. Reason: Spelling.
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  #28  
Old 08-27-2018, 01:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Vlad the Inhaler View Post
So you'll just keep dropping anecdotes?
You haven't shown anything to prove your opinion.
Excuse me for not letting it go EB.
But you come across a bit hypocritical.
What did you say about random opinions on the internet?
He's actually shown loads to disprove his opinion from a scientific perspective while desperately and clumsily trying to use science to support his flawed "opinion" (opinions being like arseholes:-) It's quite confusing isn't it? One man grasping at straws to say another man is grasping at straws. An interesting case study into the pathos of just one forum user. Just kidding EB. Sometimes you contribute some good stuff. This though isn't one of those times.
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  #29  
Old 08-27-2018, 01:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Big Sur View Post
Meh. A lot of over-hyped BS if you ask me. The facts...

To start, there are ZERO known cases of fatalities in the US from Neem or Azadirachtin. Only ONE case has ever been been reported for neem poisoning, and that guy DRANK about 4 oz of raw neem oil thinking it was salad oil. He was in the hospital for observation overnight, and then he went home. That's it.

In Oregon, California and Washington state, Azadirachtin is allowed in commercial Cannabis cultivation, and has been for MANY MANY years. It is also a common pesticide used in organic farming of all kinds of produce in the US. If this hysterical nonsense were actually true, everyone buying commercial weed and organic produce in the US would be getting sick. Hospitals would be overflowing. But they are not. Why? Because this is pure and simple bullshit.

Also this ONLY applies to raw neem oil with Azadirachtin, and Azadirachtin refined from neem (ie. AzaMax). It does NOT apply to refined neem oil, which has the aza removed and comprises the vast majority of neem oil sold in the US. But they hype it anyway. AzaMax was pulled from the shelves here earlier this year, but only because it had residue of OTHER pesticides in it other than Azadirachtin.

Also in regards to why Neem oil is not sold in Canada and Oz, that is because those bass akwards nations require that any product claiming to be a pesticide or miticide must be rigorously tested and proven to be effective before it can be sold there. Even though everyone knows that it actually works. Since it is a generic oil made from pressing neem seeds, no one company can patent it, so no company is going to pay to have it tested just so that they can sell it. The same has happened to agricultural mineral oil in Canada where it can no longer be sold as such, for the exact same reason. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH (so called) Azadirachtin POISONONG. ZERO.

Azadirachtin will break down in about 100 hours. You can look at the Cornell University FACTS and research results on Azadirachtin here:

Azadirachtin

But the hype continues. Fake news, people. Fake news. Its all hyped up over on IcRag. Carry on...
Hi Big Sur.
When you say Azadirachtin breaks down in 100 hours, under what condition?
If it takes more than 100 hours to produce, package, deliver and sell, is it still active when I buy it?
Of course it doesn't deactivate after 100 hours.
If it degrades after 100 hours contact with soil, that is a different matter.
Do you know what conditions have to be met for it to degrade rapidly (<100 hours)
Thanks.

Last edited by Vlad the Inhaler; 08-27-2018 at 02:34 AM.
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  #30  
Old 08-27-2018, 02:35 AM
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Maybe some have advised and made points of neems benefits and may feel conflicted if been advising people to use a possible poison.. ?... I do... I've only used a couple times on my own grows outdoors but I've put links up and advised others to use... Sorry...
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