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Old 11-28-2017, 09:12 AM
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Broseidon Broseidon is offline
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Join Date: Nov 2015
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It's not necessarily disagreeing Marcus it is more that the results are inconclusive.

There is generally close to 0 information on males that people have selected and the progeny they grew out of those seeds and even less if you take it further (next generation tested etc.).

I believe what happens when people attempt to go this route is either a) they find that what they grew out after making the seeds is not as good as what they grew from the original seeds so the male is likely a dud and no good (or they simply needed to grow more than 12 plants of the progeny and didn't find the good pheno) or b) they are completely surprised by how much better the progeny is than the original seeds they came from.

In case a) happens, the reports usually just fall asleep, die down and maybe get picked up 5 years later to ask "did this ever go anywhere?" with the answer always being no.
If b) happens, I assume people immediately think they have a stud and sit on really valuable genetics. I assume they start to guard their knowledge and stop sharing their results because now they are in a position where they could probably start their own seedbank/seedlabel. And many do. I believe a whooooole bunch of the lesser known, shitty, pollen chucking breeders have started like this.
Although these days, these "breeders" often don't even need the one male as they simply work with hermies to make things even easier.

So to come back to the structure/vigor/optical markers as selection criteria:
I have not been able to find a conclusive answer whether or not this results in desirable characteristics in the offspring.
All I found was a call to caution by experienced breeders when selecting males "solely" for their vigor/structure and other optical impressions.
Because the result COULD be that the characteristics passed on to the offspring result in more hemp like cannabis as plants that put a lot of energy into structure/vigor etc. CAN lack that energy in bud/resin production.
But again: this is inconclusive. I am 100% certain that structure etc. played a part in selections done in the past and just looking at the CM I have going at the moment, makes it obvious that these plants were also selected for their structure. Unlike OG Kush for example, where people apparently ignored structure all together, otherwise they wouldn't be such viney plants that have to be supported massively.

The point is, it is all shooting in the dark and anecdotal. Personal preference etc. etc.
Because say Marcus selects a male with one of the main criteria being vigor/structure/"the look" while I maybe select based on stem rub/smell test as the main criteria.

Let's say Marcus ends up with a male that looks picture perfect, grows so fast, takes all the abuse and would obviously yield extremely well as a result, if it was female. It does however smell very weak, has no hollow stem and already shows pre-flowers in veg.
And let's say I find a male that looks all spindly, shitty structure, very big spacing between nodes, no bushiness, reacts poorly to topping, etc. but the stem rub gives me an insanely strong aroma, the stem is hollow and there are no pre-flowers in veg.

Then we both cross our male to our selected female(s), make seeds, grow those out.

Based on our selection criteria, one might assume that Marcus would find very heavy producers an all the great looking plants in the world and I might find a bunch of runty looking stuff that smells and tastes insane and hits hard.

But it could just as well turn out that Marcus finds all the heavy hitters with the great smells but are more spindly/worse structure and I am left with a bunch of plants that have a better structure than their parents but are less flavorful/terpy and have weaker potency.

We simply can't say and simply don't know.

All we can really do is make use of the little information and experience out there and use it to, presumably, skew the odds in our favor. But we might do just the opposite, unknowingly, and throw out the good stuff because we believed it wasn't all that, based on the little info and experiences by others we found.

In the end, it is my believe that the topic of males will remain a huge mystery for many more years until this thing has gone so wide that actual, scientifically sound data and selection criteria emerge.

Until then, I like to say that the best way to select a male is to consider the few known criteria for selection (as passed on by people like Shanti) but to not make them the deciding factor.
The deciding factor, imho, should be your gut feeling as a grower/breeder.

Let the force guide you

Ridiculous as this seems, I think at the point we are at right now, it is likely the best one can do.

Broseidon out

Last edited by Broseidon; 11-28-2017 at 09:17 AM.
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