Mr. Nice Forums  
Home History Strains Media Web Community Medical Marijuana Contact us Auctions

Go Back   MNS Forums > Grow information > 14. Indoor

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-13-2012, 11:44 PM
PatrickStar's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the house
Posts: 3,918
Default Let's Build an Organic Recyclable Soil!

It's time for me to build a soil for my next round of plants, and I figgured that I'd do it right . I want to build a soil that will:

1. Maintain it's structure and drainage capacity.
2. Maintain a stable Ph value.
3. Deplete it's nitrogen value completely after a 3+ month cycle.
4. Remain a hospitable place for healthy soil microbes.
5. Retain some mineralization from one cycle to the next.

If I do it right, I should have a kick ass soil that will require only water for 3+ week periods of even rapid growth in containers. It seems like plants are looking for soil in 3 week intervals - clone/seed, low nutrient value; veg, decent nitrogen; transition, add phosphate; flower, add potassium; etc...

I'm starting with ~20+ gallons of recycled soil. It is anywhere between 3 runs recycled to 1 run recycled. In order of which it was built:
Run #1: FFOceanForest 50% + perlite 40% + vermicompost 10% + crabshell + P guano + s.phos/leonardite (g.hydro rare earth). Appx 3cuft total
Run #2: (added to above ~50/50) Roots orig 1.5 cuft, perlite ~1cuft, vermicompost ~2 gallons + crabshell + Nguano + Pguano + r. earth.
Run #2a: Cut above ~ 40% above, 40% roots 707 soil, ~20% fresh perlite (end of small perlite)
Run #3: Made new mix with ~20% above (nothing recycled more than once yet) fine coco + vermicompost + last of crabshell + Pguano. Began topdressing bone/fish meal + bird guano dry fert.

The plants that I have in flower now, and will be added to my recycling mix are basically the above cut with chunky perlite, and amended with the bone/feather/fish meal/guano dry ferts. The soil should be pretty much depleted when it gets recycled.

Right, so most of that is irrelevant to most, but it's an idea of where my soil I'm starting with is at. It's mostly depleted of NPK, and I'm sure it could use a re-mineralization. I have yet to see a Ph issue, but I will address that ahead of time. What I have to work with right now is a little heavy on the structure side, meaning it will compact if watered too quickly or too often. I expect to add back ~10% either chunky coco or chunky perlite on each new recycling run to maintain structure/drainage, and I think that's the most important AND overlooked part of organic soil.

So I have this 20 gallons of slightly heavy, prety much NPK/salt depleted, microblicious soil. I added 1 cup of 3-0-1.5 dry fert made of cottonseed +soybean meals, r.phosphate, & potassium sulfate. It's not enough N to make it cook. Today I sourced THE SPOT for individual dry ferts. Bulk prices available in lil bitty sizes. What they DIDN'T have (reason I went there in the first place ) was chunky coco or a bag of dolomite lime less than 50lb. I picked up a pound each of greensand, soft r.phosphate, and kelp meal for ~$5

So the plan is...
1. Cut what I have 50/50 with fresh chunky coco.
2. Add back vermicompost @10% of total volume.
3. Add the following hard organic inputs for long term release. These will be added back at ~1/4-1/2 listed rates in future recycles
Dolomite Lime @ 1/4 cup/cuft. Supplies Magnesium & slows Ph swings from decomposition of other organic inputs.
Soft Rock Phosphate @ 1/2lb per cuft. Supplies phosphates & cal & trace minerals. Also has very high electromagnetism to aid in re-mineralization.
Azomite/volcanic rock @ 1/4 cup/cuft. Supplies trace elements, aids in re-mineralization.
Jersey Greensand @1/2lb cuft. Supplies potassium & excites soil microbes.
Crabshell @ 1/2lb cuft. Supplies N, P, and Cal. Releases at a rate between rocks and meals.

4. Add the following non-Nitrogen sources for use within the first 3 weeks of the roots saying hello. These will be added each recycle.
High Phos. bat guano @ 1/4 cup/cuft
Kelp meal @ 1/2 cup/cuft

5. Add insoluble and soluble Nitrogen. Will cook the soil, and start the breakdown of the 'hard' inputs. I'm planning on Alfalfa meal and High N bat guano @ 1/2 cup ea per cuft. Also added back each recycle.

Everything will get mixed, watered with de-chlorinated tap, and left to cook for 2+ weeks. The soil I'm blooming in now will get exactly the same treatment in 2 months (including the cup of soy/cottonseed/sulf.potash stuff). The goal is to have ~80-100 gal in use, 80-100 cooking, and 80-100+ ready to go.

I'm waiting on the shop to get the dolomite and chunky coco to get started mixing. After the initial cost of ~$10/cuft, each recycling run should cost no more than a few bucks for additional input, with most of that cost applied to perlite and or coco. AND you don't have to pay to dispose of medium. Recycling soil is cheap, easy (after the first time gathering supplies), and produces what I think is a better finished product compared to bottled nutes in a sterile rootzone. I'll get pics up when I start to get my hands dirty in a few days.

__________________
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-13-2012, 11:52 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 883
Default

Hey Patrick,

I'm really happy that your doing this thread, especially since compost and soil are two things that I'm focusing on for my outdoor season. I hope that your going to include pictures of the process if your able to. I know your down with making your compost and being organic and shit.... Anyways, thanks for the time your putting into this thread that will act as a future reference for me and others.

Best Regards

sXi
__________________
Do As I Say, Not As I Do
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-13-2012, 11:53 PM
coop
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

can you get epsoma dry ferts out west?
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-14-2012, 12:16 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 177
Default

good stuff Mr star, looks like you've got all the bases covered.
i agree about the importance of amending structure when recycling.
(learning the hard way at the moment) the compost i use contains fytocell (sp?) which decomposes
within roughly 3-4 months, good for the environment but not for longevity i added some fine perlite but not much, hoping it will be enough.

do you reckon alot of slats/minerals in tap water will be a problem when reusing soil?

and finally have you had a look at 'biochar' or charcoal as an additive.
many many benefits.
  • porous structure holds water and dosnt smother roots
  • holds nutes well without leeching
  • home for microbes ( structure )
  • very wettable
  • light so easy to mix
  • can be 'activated' by soaking in tea's ect. ( active carbon maybe )

good luck with the mix


edit: been using a cement mixer to mix multi-purp compost and manure, and tilled top soil with manure. sculpts the top soil into pea like balls
and alot more back friendly. need to cut it with more manure to get the weight down but it looks very promising.



__________________
~{ la folie raisonnante }~

Last edited by zesk; 03-14-2012 at 12:29 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-14-2012, 12:20 AM
PatrickStar's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the house
Posts: 3,918
Default

Yep, I was surprised to see them but they are available. The other dry pre-packaged ferts that I've seen are the Dr. Earth brand. I was poking around the hydro shop today, and I came across a section of serve yourself dry organics. They must have had 2dozen + different organic inputs.

Back east, my soil was mostly espoma products. I got away from lots of cottonseed meal due to the levels of pesticides used in cotton production, and I started to get away from chickenshit due to all of the bullshit steroids and antibiotics they feed commercial chickens.

Yo I am not shy with the cam sXi . I just only have a bag of almost inert coco based recycled soil, and a 3 lb bag of mixed nutes right now. When I do it to it, I'll wash up and let ya all see

Anyone here real big on alfalfa and the tricantinol (spelling, I know...) that it's got? Most of the stuff I use has usefulness beyond the NPK, so I'm looking at alfalfa to bring that to a Nitrogen source. I've used mixed ferts with alfalfa, but never by itself.

EDIT - zesk, I've never used biochar, but I would be interested in adding it. I've read very positive reports from good growers with it. It's my understanding that it will gobble up the available N from the soil for a while, so I would have to have some soil already ready already if I wanted to start to incorporate it.
__________________

Last edited by PatrickStar; 03-14-2012 at 12:25 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-14-2012, 12:36 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 177
Default

Quote:
Anyone here real big on alfalfa and the tricantinol (spelling, I know...) that it's got? Most of the stuff I use has usefulness beyond the NPK, so I'm looking at alfalfa to bring that to a Nitrogen source. I've used mixed ferts with alfalfa, but never by itself.
got some stuff called alfalfa plus. not had space to use it in the indoor garden but will for the chillies and outdoor ladies.

A mini-pelleted blend of alfalfa, comfrey, seaweed and beetroot extract.a renowned green manure crop, naturally rich in nitrogen. Organic nitrogen/potassium fertiliser (N:2.5, K:7)

Alfalfa: a renowned green manure crop, naturally rich in nitrogen.

Comfrey: the ideal compliment to alfalfa, rich in readily available potassium and a range of trace elements and vitamins, long-known to have beneficial effects on plant health, resistance to disease and yield.

Seaweed: contains hormone-like substances for enhanced plant growth. Shows water-retaining properties.

Beet Extract: provides a high content of natural, readily available potassium.


Quote:
EDIT - zesk, I've never used biochar, but I would be interested in adding it. I've read very positive reports from good growers with it. It's my understanding that it will gobble up the available N from the soil for a while, so I would have to have some soil already ready already if I wanted to start to incorporate it.
thanks, wasnt aware.
__________________
~{ la folie raisonnante }~
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-14-2012, 12:47 AM
PatrickStar's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the house
Posts: 3,918
Default

See, that's why I did a thread, and not scribbled in a notebook!!

COMFREY!!

Forgot about that one, been meaning to add it. The real deal closed loop organic guys (jaykush n them...) use water that had comfrey, nettles and alfalfa soaking in it. Supposed to be the organic rocketfuel I'ma deffo look for it when I go back.

The biochar is 100% carbon, so it locks up the nitrogen, but will store and release it after it initially cooks. I'm just not sure how long I have to wait to use the soil after I add/cook the biochar. Even a hot cook is generally ready after 7-10 days, so 2 weeks is what I'm familiar with.

I don't worry about salts, but I have good tapwater. I would be more concerned with the salt content of my kelp and crab products if anything, but they will get many times the soil volume of water run though them, so I don't ever really think about it
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-14-2012, 12:52 AM
coop
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default

nice,I love going to the local nursery cause they still have some of the comfort products from my outdoor days back east. and some of the most impressive cacti in the state.

I would rec'd looking into some neem meal too its good for micronutes and pest resistance too.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-14-2012, 01:14 AM
PatrickStar's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: In the house
Posts: 3,918
Default

Big change for me going to a hydro shop

For my first 4 years, there was 40miles worth of straight line between me and a hydro store, and it felt shady as hell coming and going. I lived at the local garden center/agway and shopped growco online for the bottles and stuff like crabshell/guano.

Now I meet cool ass people, and the prices are right there with the online spots cause there are so many shops around. Doesn't hurt that one of the shops is the storefront for hydro-organics/earth juice Got 6 3gal 'air pots' for 12.50 with my $5 worth of dry organics today Shit, just what I bought today, some coco or peat and some piss gets you an elbow
__________________
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-14-2012, 01:27 AM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2010
Posts: 177
Default

Quote:

COMFREY!!

Forgot about that one, been meaning to add it. The real deal closed loop organic guys (jaykush n them...) use water that had comfrey, nettles and alfalfa soaking in it. Supposed to be the organic rocketfuel I'ma deffo look for it when I go back.


ill send a cut if possible. bocking 14, sterile and little fiber.

and listen to coop about the neem meal. very good. really worth using if you have knats and comes cheap (3.00/kg) where i am
__________________
~{ la folie raisonnante }~

Last edited by zesk; 03-14-2012 at 01:32 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 11:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
All rights reserved, MR NICE SEEDBANK, NL