Mr. Nice Forums  
Home History Strains Media Web Community Medical Marijuana Contact us Auctions

Go Back   MNS Forums > Grow information > 10. Mothers and fathers

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-26-2017, 02:06 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 103
Default How to Pick a good Father for breedinng

Hi MNS, I was wondering what were desirable traits in looking for a father. I understand this is question that could be answered in different ways depending on the needs and desire of the breeder but in general I guess im wondering if certain traits or genes are predominantly passed on from one parent. Like height, flowering time, potency ,scent, flavor etc. I have a "Small" understanding of genetics about recessive and dominant, homozygous and heterozygous and was curious on how to select a father. Any input would be great much respect to all the growers in this community. If Shanti or Nevil were able to teach some knowledge that would be beyond awesome. Thanks
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-26-2017, 07:09 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2017
Location: Aussieland
Posts: 489
Default

A post from shanti..
The importance of selecting plants for the traits that are useful to the breeder/grower is the main reason genetics have evolved as they have. Male plants of this species need to be carefully selected to avoid a lot of laborious work, which means one will need to do a lot of testing of F1 seed made from a particular male to verify if the sex linked traits are real or not. Males that auto flower irrespective of daylight hours are normally eliminated to insure against hermaphroditism or unwanted male traits. Males that flower too quickly or too tall are also not the best for breeding since they put too much energy into fiber production which is not the trait one is looking for in a medicinal plant. Males that have large hollow main stems are sought out rather than males that are more pith-filled stems - the main reason are that large hollow stemmed males are better THC producers than other plants. Males that produce tight floral clusters rather than airy sparse floral clusters are usually better to breed with. Finally if you rub your fingers against the stem of a developing male and are able to get strong odors or aromas (terpines) you will be advised to use these males as trichrome production and flavor are directly related to plants that produce odors early on. There are several other traits to look for in a male but these are rather advanced and need microscope help which is not really relevant for the hobby grower/breeder.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-27-2017, 10:10 AM
Broseidon's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 922
Default

This is a huge topic with no definitive answers.

That little quote that Growstone posted is pretty much still the height of science regarding selecting males to this day and age. Little as it may seem...

You really never know until you made seeds with it, grew it out and then selected from that round.
Some say you even need to cross that selected female back to the original make and grow out those seeds again and make a selection to get a definitive answer on whether or not your selected original male is truly a "stud" or not.

I have looked into the topic quite a bit and to my surprise, an actually valid approach to the whole issue seems to be to look for "weak" males.
The idea being that they will be recessive in most every aspect and allow all the traits of the selected female to show through without taking anything away from them.


I believe the best marker for selecting a male is the stem rub. I have heard time and again that you will know your male when you see it and I believe this refers a lot to stem rubbing and getting strong and pronounced aromas. Much stronger than from all other subjects.

I have not discovered such a male yet.

Aside from the stem rub and hollow stem thing, you can really only look at the overall structure of the plant, how it grew, how it reacted to stress etc. etc.

But this could lead you down a path of undesired characteristics just as fast as it could lead you to desired ones. Maybe the vigor and great branching etc. etc. results in more hemp like offspring with less desirable drug cannabis traits.

Selecting for late flowering males also seems to be a good idea or at least one of the better ones possible.
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-27-2017, 04:48 PM
Marcus_in_the_Darkus's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2017
Location: Legal in Massachusetts
Posts: 975
Default

Others may disagree, but I think it's valid to select males based on structure. I intend to run a pack of Afghan Haze next year to look for hazy plants, so it seems logical to select haze-leaning plants and cull indica types based on structure, at least to thin out the herd so that only a few make it into the flower tent. Of course I'm going to throw out some good potential plants because a haze high can come from an Indica looking plant, but in general the sativa looking plants are most likely to give sativa effects.

You can also do a quick dry and smoke test of the male flowers after they have opened, shed their pollen, and dropped off the plant. I was pleasantly surprised last night to do this smoke test on the haze-leaning Angel's Breathe male I selected and found a single hit cut right through the chem-ish weed I had been smoking. Of course, the only meaningful test is to grow out the seeds and test the progeny.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-27-2017, 05:13 PM
PlantManBee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,242
Default

Branching structure I agree with. Culling things you deem Indica or sativa before they finish is a good way to throw out good candidates in my OPINION. Especially leaf morphology. Nothing gets covered up faster than sativa leaf traits IMO/E
__________________
Blurring the boundaries between plants and animals since '64
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-28-2017, 09:12 AM
Broseidon's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 922
Default

It's not necessarily disagreeing Marcus it is more that the results are inconclusive.

There is generally close to 0 information on males that people have selected and the progeny they grew out of those seeds and even less if you take it further (next generation tested etc.).

I believe what happens when people attempt to go this route is either a) they find that what they grew out after making the seeds is not as good as what they grew from the original seeds so the male is likely a dud and no good (or they simply needed to grow more than 12 plants of the progeny and didn't find the good pheno) or b) they are completely surprised by how much better the progeny is than the original seeds they came from.

In case a) happens, the reports usually just fall asleep, die down and maybe get picked up 5 years later to ask "did this ever go anywhere?" with the answer always being no.
If b) happens, I assume people immediately think they have a stud and sit on really valuable genetics. I assume they start to guard their knowledge and stop sharing their results because now they are in a position where they could probably start their own seedbank/seedlabel. And many do. I believe a whooooole bunch of the lesser known, shitty, pollen chucking breeders have started like this.
Although these days, these "breeders" often don't even need the one male as they simply work with hermies to make things even easier.


So to come back to the structure/vigor/optical markers as selection criteria:
I have not been able to find a conclusive answer whether or not this results in desirable characteristics in the offspring.
All I found was a call to caution by experienced breeders when selecting males "solely" for their vigor/structure and other optical impressions.
Because the result COULD be that the characteristics passed on to the offspring result in more hemp like cannabis as plants that put a lot of energy into structure/vigor etc. CAN lack that energy in bud/resin production.
But again: this is inconclusive. I am 100% certain that structure etc. played a part in selections done in the past and just looking at the CM I have going at the moment, makes it obvious that these plants were also selected for their structure. Unlike OG Kush for example, where people apparently ignored structure all together, otherwise they wouldn't be such viney plants that have to be supported massively.


The point is, it is all shooting in the dark and anecdotal. Personal preference etc. etc.
Because say Marcus selects a male with one of the main criteria being vigor/structure/"the look" while I maybe select based on stem rub/smell test as the main criteria.

Let's say Marcus ends up with a male that looks picture perfect, grows so fast, takes all the abuse and would obviously yield extremely well as a result, if it was female. It does however smell very weak, has no hollow stem and already shows pre-flowers in veg.
And let's say I find a male that looks all spindly, shitty structure, very big spacing between nodes, no bushiness, reacts poorly to topping, etc. but the stem rub gives me an insanely strong aroma, the stem is hollow and there are no pre-flowers in veg.

Then we both cross our male to our selected female(s), make seeds, grow those out.


Based on our selection criteria, one might assume that Marcus would find very heavy producers an all the great looking plants in the world and I might find a bunch of runty looking stuff that smells and tastes insane and hits hard.

But it could just as well turn out that Marcus finds all the heavy hitters with the great smells but are more spindly/worse structure and I am left with a bunch of plants that have a better structure than their parents but are less flavorful/terpy and have weaker potency.

We simply can't say and simply don't know.

All we can really do is make use of the little information and experience out there and use it to, presumably, skew the odds in our favor. But we might do just the opposite, unknowingly, and throw out the good stuff because we believed it wasn't all that, based on the little info and experiences by others we found.

In the end, it is my believe that the topic of males will remain a huge mystery for many more years until this thing has gone so wide that actual, scientifically sound data and selection criteria emerge.

Until then, I like to say that the best way to select a male is to consider the few known criteria for selection (as passed on by people like Shanti) but to not make them the deciding factor.
The deciding factor, imho, should be your gut feeling as a grower/breeder.

Let the force guide you

Ridiculous as this seems, I think at the point we are at right now, it is likely the best one can do.

Broseidon out

Last edited by Broseidon; 11-28-2017 at 09:17 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-28-2017, 11:22 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Posts: 103
Default

thanks for the input all. I have 3pks that i got from the auction. Mango Haze, NHS, and Critical Haze. Im hoping to find a nice haze dom male to start breeding with. Does anyone have any experience with the 3 strains i mentioned?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 11-29-2017, 08:28 AM
Broseidon's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2015
Posts: 922
Default

Mango Haze is goooood shiet.

I only grew out 2 females so far and was a bit disappointed but I had so many issues that round, everything but the one Ortega female was not impressive to me (including Karma and Ace gear).

So I believe that was due to my environment more than anything and will definitely run those seeds asap.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 11-29-2017, 04:03 PM
PlantManBee's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 1,242
Default

I haven't seen a bad plant out of I think 5 mango haze females. They also seem to be about 80% female. Not just my experience either.

I only ran one critical haze. I wasn't impressed but a friend picked up the clones, so maybe I am hard to please.

I haven't run NHS.

Good luck.
__________________
Blurring the boundaries between plants and animals since '64
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 11-29-2017, 09:45 PM
Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 41
Default

I never grew male (yet) but I can tell, male or female, you have to flower it. The NHS beast I had used to show some fat indica leaves in grow, to finally ended up being extremely hazy (more than 110days of flowering).

Key is selection, time, lot of work, and luck .
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 07:30 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
All rights reserved, MR NICE SEEDBANK, NL