Mr. Nice Forums  
Home History Strains Media Web Community Medical Marijuana Contact us Auctions

Go Back   MNS Forums > Grow information > 10. Mothers and fathers

Reply
 
LinkBack Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 06-09-2014, 04:12 PM
PNutGallery's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 13
Default 10,000 Watt Mother Room

Greetings. I figured this as good a place as any to introduce myself, since I really enjoy the art of keeping mothers. Personally, keeping bonsai moms for a number of years taught me a lot about growing weed and container growing, in general. It taught me all about weed's response to pruning and shaping, how to water properly and avoid long term salt build up, etc.

All kinds 'o neat stuff.

This was a medical garden, but it was over x,xxx in plant count, located in a county that had a ban on medical grows, and lacked supporting paperwork. So, basically, it was a 100% illegal weed grow in the x,xxx range. Mildly asshole puckering in those numbers. It was supposed to be up to snuff and legit (I had a business partner that, well ...) and this was a few years ago right before the legislation regarding dispensaries in Colorado passed.

Keeping all of that in mind, I was judicious with the pics I took. Namely, not many, and, unfortunately, I can't show you a clone closet full, with x,xxx cuttings in it, 'cause I never wanted to have a pic of that available to the po-po ...

In addition to supplying my garden with clones, the new legislation required dispensaries start growing their own, versus what had been going on with most of them, which was dudes walking around with a pound of weed in a backpack, knocking on dispensary's doors. Most dispensaries were NOT started by growers, expert or otherwise, so they couldn't really supply all their own weed. But, with the legislation, there was a mad rush for clones.

Enter, well, me.

This is looking down a row of a 24 site RDWC system that was lit by 6 vertical thowies. I obviously had it top fed, a chiller, a big daddy air pump, etc. There are 24 different strains in that system, all on the same nutrient solution which starts at about 5.2, or so, runs to about 6.1 over the course of days and then is dumped and changed. Something, if you believe the 'weed forum banter', can't be done without issue, as each strain requires its own mix and I am in "like, totally the wrong pH range for weed and RDWC, dude." The exceptions were Sativa or heavy Sativa dominant hybrids, but for most Indicas and Hybrids, they are not as individually finiky as people say.

High production Bonsai Moms. PNutGallery style ...

I had just gone down this row and done a little maintenance haircut:

MothersBuckets1.jpg

Another shot, with some mothers in PPV and Homers fighting for light:

RDWC&DirtMoms.jpg

Some smaller moms in an 4x4 Ebb & Flow under a bat wing thowie, with 5 gallon PPV buckets ringed around the tray:

MothersTray.jpg

The plant you see with the three woody stems is a Bubblegum mom that is probably 7 years old in that pic and spent most of her years in a 6" pot, bonsai'ed and under a CFL. When I opened that room, I up-potted her a couple times and buried the meristem, and she grew to fit a 5 gallon pot quickly. Bonsai plants can be, after years, grown out:

MotherPPV2.jpg

That plant center top that you can just see the woody stem and bucket? Right below the vertical light bulb? Well, that just so happens to be a Super Silver Haze. Probably 7-8 years old at the time, previously bonsai'ed for years. STILL one of my all time favorites. Kudos to the breeder of that beauty. That's an AK-47 on the right, also an ex-bonsai. It and a couple others got tagged hard by fungus gnats not too long before I upped their production. Got the fungus, lost a couple major stems coming off the meristems on a couple plants (that Bubblegum used to have two more major branches, too), and it took a while for stem strength to recover on the plant:

PPVMoms&Clones1.jpg

This is just some random mother, couldn't tell you what strain as I was running 60, or so, at any one time in that room and probably had 80 different strains run through there:

MotherPPV1.jpg

Earlier on in the room, seeing how many plants I can get under one light:

PPVMoms&Clones2.jpg

A random tray of rooted clones ready to go. I usually had multiple strains per tray:

CloneTray1.jpg

Me getting some freshly rooted potted up and ready to go to another dispensary, and BubbaDog keeping an eye on things. RIP BubbaDog, RIP buddy:

CloneBubba1.jpg

A look at the closet with some clones in it:

CloneRomm1.jpg

Of course, you need power. My boot and some big ass electrical cables:

PowerMomRoom1.jpg

I'll take some 'o dat. Please and thankyou:

PowerMomRoom2.jpg

When that boot wasn't hanging out around clone trays and power cables, it was walking around ski area mountains in the summer, doing random, fun things and kicking ice off of a snowcat in the winter. Retired from all of that a few years ago and now at 42 and beat to shit with nerve damage, needing multiple back surgeries, etc., already having had multiple broken bones and surgeries. Lot's 'o crashin' going way too fast on too many things over the years ...

I'm obviously fan of the average grower keeping bonsai moms. Even if you just have a one light 400 Watt grow. You can keep half a dozen moms, your own strain bank, under a 27 watt CFL in a closet for years.

Being a Strain Chaser doesn't really pay off, these days. There are so many bullshit named strains out there, it ain't funny. Saw it with my own eyes - people taking a strain and renaming it for business purposes, to make it 'more appealing'. I guarantee you Shanti's SSH is being sold in Colorado dispensaries under another name or two, 'cause I personally put a whole bunch 'o those fuggin' awesome genes into the system a few years ago ...

But, we live in a world where names sell, most breeders are just Seeders, chuckin' pollen, chasing dollar bills, like dispensary owners, so they'll call it whatever they think their customers want to hear it called.

One other thing I want to point out, is my take on pH. All of those plants, including the mothers in peat/perlite/vermiculite (PPV), were fed the exact same nute regiment (ppms varied, but pH and proportions the same). And a fresh nutrient solution for them started at about 5.2, or so.

I know many weed forum veterans have seen this chart:

SpH.jpg

It isn't any good. The guy who made that, St0ney, was a mediocre hydro grower when he made that chart. No insult, just an objective observation of a knucklehead, me, who happened to be a member of the same site, Hemp Cultivation, that he was when he made it. He was also a mod, so we all know how that works. Every new member assumes mods are kick ass growers (whether they are or not), and people like to kiss mod's asses and lavish praise on them.

No offense, anyone. Considering the intent here was for no mods, I hope ya'll understand that I am trying to explain how that chart is incorrect, yet managed to get popular and plastered everywhere, not comment on anyone here. Incidentally and tangentially, it's not funny, but I did snicker when I read it was Japan Freak that pushed things over the edge - I've dealt with that knucklehead jackass on the weed forums over the years.

Anyway, that chart is incorrect because a bar graph does not accurately represent the process. Absorption occurs at different rates at different pH. Further, St0ney's numbers are wrong. Certainly for hydro. This is what I believe to be a much more accurate pH chart to consult:

Soil_PH_chart.jpg

One of the reasons I wanted to bring that up in this thread, is because it pertains to the maintenance of those mother in PPV. PPV is NOT soil. It is a soiless mix, for it lacks clay and sand, which affects ionic exchange. I always add more perlite, and once you do, those 5 gallon Homer buckets are nothing more than a Hand-Watered-Drain-To-Waste Hydro system. They are soiless hydro gorws, NOT soil grows.

And respond very, very well to being treated such and with the soilless pH ranges of 5.1, or so, to 6.1-2, or so. Feed low pH, as medium dries out and exchange occurs, the rootzone pH will swing, floating a range. 10-15% runoff to clean out the old, get the pH back down.

There are obviously some nutrient manufacturer selection issues (like choosing one that starts in the low 5's when mixed), but I've seen a lot of issues, over the years, for trying to treat Indoor PPV like soil. It can be pulled off, but ...

And there was not one drop of Cal/Mag, one lick of Epsom Salt, nor any pH Up or Down every used in those nutrient solutions. With the pH I run being anything but coincidental to that. It, I believe, is responsible for my not needing any of that stuff. Stuff, that when used, can actually create problems, more so than is pointed it out or discussed on the weed forums ...

So, I'm a farmer. Figured my introductory post belonged in a farmin' sub-forum. And I looove the art of mother keeping.

So, Howdy MNS Folks, how the hell all ya'll doin'?
__________________
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

- Seldom Seen Smith

Last edited by PNutGallery; 06-10-2014 at 04:11 AM. Reason: 'Cause I reread it and needed to fix sumpin'
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 06-09-2014, 10:39 PM
weezy's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 878
Default

Bravo you must have tons of great knowledge for us! I live out west but my brother is from Breck! You still in CO? So what was the purpose of all those mothers, were you guys just supplying clones, or did you need all those for flower rooms? Keep posting please!
__________________
Find the peace...
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 06-09-2014, 10:57 PM
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2014
Posts: 355
Default

Hi Pnut

Serious op there .
I agree with you re the chart . My guru told me it was pretty to look at but not the bible .

One question what is PPV for us outside Merica ?

Welcome aboard .
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 06-09-2014, 11:31 PM
PNutGallery's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by weezy View Post
Bravo you must have tons of great knowledge for us! I live out west but my brother is from Breck! You still in CO? So what was the purpose of all those mothers, were you guys just supplying clones, or did you need all those for flower rooms? Keep posting please!
Born and raised in the High Country. Stuck down in the Dirty D area (Denver) right now, but soon to head back for the hills for some more elbow room. Set up a greenhouse/supplemental lighting medical grow for people with real deal medical issues (I'm an ex-skibum, snowcat operator, whitewater raft guide, bartender, bouncer, etc., so no problems with recreational use - my best work in a cat was when stoned (which was most of the time)-, just wanna grow as much digity dank as I can, and not for profit but for people to use to seek relief from real deal ailments).

I have me sum supplementally lit greenhouse RDWC plans and then perhaps large amounts of that into concentrates, like Phoenix Tears type stuff for those that are interested in pursuing that, and other stuff. Plus bud. Get a few 'patients' (I'm cringe a bit with that term as I ain't a Dr. - I'm a farmer), grow what I need on a few greenhouse RDWC trees and utilize extra plant counts to then run a real deal breeding operation with a lot of stock over the course of a few years in some specifically set up rooms.

That there is my plan. All within Colorado, the High Country, of course. Only a couple other places I could live and be content in my surroundings ...

Those mothers served both. I was moving a lot of clones/week to dispensaries for their dispensary grows, plus supplying my own veg and flower rooms. I was also asked to consult on. like, 3 IIRC, large grows and several smaller grows, so I made sure to gather any strains I saw that I wanted when in those other gardens.

It was a nuts-o, hectic scene for a while in the dispensaries popping up everywhere in Colorado - and most of them not having an f'ing clue on how to grow weed, let alone in a commercial environment.

Left it all with a pretty sour taste in my mouth, actually. I'm not a businessman, and I have never been motivated by money. Not a personality suited for that game. I'm a farmer. I'm a dude that likes to mind his own business, hang out with my doggies in the middle of nowhere and grow weed.

I dunno about tons 'o knowledge, but I have definitely screwed a few things up and learned from those mistakes ...
__________________
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

- Seldom Seen Smith

Last edited by PNutGallery; 06-10-2014 at 12:09 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 06-09-2014, 11:57 PM
PNutGallery's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mary Mary View Post
Hi Pnut

Serious op there .
I agree with you re the chart . My guru told me it was pretty to look at but not the bible .

One question what is PPV for us outside Merica ?

Welcome aboard .
That chart is my bane, lol. It is nothing personal against St0ney, but it is just both so damn wrong and plastered everywhere and referred to as The Chart. It has led many growers astray.

I miss weed forums and talking about growing. But I just haven't been able to get into it much in the last few years, I am an OverGrower and then PlanetGanja after that and starting over on anew forum lost appeal and then it has been a wave of new growers and new participants with all of the medical stuff in the last few years, made me feel homeless in the weed forum sense.

I've visited this place before, and I really like the vibe here and the conversations. Thanks for the welcome.

Plus, Shantibaba's work kicks ass, so might as well post on the forum of someone I deem to be professional in breeding and professional in approach in an other wise seedy bsuiness ...
__________________
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

- Seldom Seen Smith

Last edited by PNutGallery; 06-10-2014 at 12:05 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 06-10-2014, 01:33 AM
weezy's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 878
Default

Nice! I agree with you I wanted to grow weed before I knew the concept "money" so to speak. So I know I love the plant more then anything! I hear a lot of Bruce banner #... in co not much out here though. How much do you know about Scott at rare dankness and his genetics? I think he's pretty legit all regular beans like mns. Don't want to get into his strains names or anything just wanted to know what people out there thought of the guy. Peace for now
__________________
Find the peace...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 06-10-2014, 05:44 AM
PNutGallery's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 13
Default

Mary Mary

I forgot. PPV is what I use when talking about your standard 'ol peat/perlite/vermiculite mix. Like Pro-Mix, Sunshine, etc. Incidentally, I came across that stuff in that pink bag in that pic with my good 'ol mountain dog, and really like it. The mfg. is Fafard, and that mix is 4P, with P being extra perlite, to which I always add more, to any PPV mix, as I like it airier, at which point it works for me very well as a hydro system in the rootzone. I don't know if it is available for retail, as I got it from a nursery wholesaler.

I mention that because I think it is made in Canada, and with you not being 'Merican and on a weed forum, first guess is Canada, than the U.K. So you, or anyone north of me in Canuck Land, ever comes across it and are looking to try something new, it certainly met my criteria and I really liked the consistency and overall texture of it.

That's a lot 'o words for a simple question ... guess I'm a weed geek, lol.

Quote:
Originally Posted by weezy View Post
I hear a lot of Bruce banner #... in co not much out here though.
It's around a few of the dispensaries I know of. The problem is finding it, or any strain, really grown to a top-notch level, to really tell how good it is. I've sampled it, and it wasn't nuttin' I hadn't smoked before. I really gave up on paying attention to all of the new strains out in the last few years.

In addition to loads of the White Demon (powdery mildew) and The Borg (spider mites) that actually seemed to enjoy being doused in things like pyrethrum that came in from California when the dispensaries blew up here, I saw so many strains come in. A whole bunch 'o clone only stuff and names that were the obvious work of pollen chuckers. Seeders, not breeders.

I got soured on the breeding game as it is going on today and has been for a few years, saw too many instances of names being changed or just flat-out made up. People calling themselves breeders that are anything but, and engaged in anything but a real breeding operation. There are some quality breeders today, but I think they are few and far between.

I would say that most people in the seed business are simply in it for the cash. You can make some bank on seeds. You can get a lot of money throwing seeds out of 4000 watts worth of lighting. Reservoir Seeds was a great example of all of this - not that I wish him ill, or anyone to deal with the po-po for growing weed, but he is an example of what is wrong with the current status of the 'breeding' industry.

A bunch 'o smoke and mirrors and flat out bullshit on a lot of stuff.

And I don't think selling seeds for money is a bad thing. I think being a mediocre grower, not practicing true breeding, creating a bazillion crosses, calling oneself a breeder, and doing all of that for the sole purpose of making as much money as possible from growing a few weed plants is a bad thing.

And I think that most of the 'breeders' today fall in the latter category.

It doesn't just matter what strain it is - what really matters, first and foremost, is how it is grown. Then, if that is equal, what the strain is comes next. It's true if you think about it. Suppose Strain A is your favorite. But suppose you are given the choice of Strain A out of a mediocre garden, or Strain B, itself pretty damn good, grown by a top-notch grower, really pushing maximum genetic expression for potency, aromas, etc. I think most will choose Strain B, even if Strain A is their favorite, because it will be smoother and stonier and of an overall higher quality.

And if it was a blind test, where you didn't know the strain names, you would judge B better than A, not because of the genes, but of how it was grown. I always try to keep that in mind when I see fad strains. What's it being compared to? A great set of genes, like Strain A, but was grown like crap? Who knows.

This name stuff and pollen chuckin' is way out of control, IMO. I don't support it, and I am done with clone only strains, too. If it isn't well bred and available in seed form, I'm over it. Just a personal choice.

Quote:
How much do you know about Scott at rare dankness and his genetics? I think he's pretty legit all regular beans like mns. Don't want to get into his strains names or anything just wanted to know what people out there thought of the guy. Peace for now
I've returned to my hermit nature, and am not really rubbing elbows with anyone in the industry at the moment. I can't speak first hand about his stuff, as I haven't grown any of it. And I cannot speak of him as a person or how he does business, 'cause I don't know any of that.

But, since you said 'legit ... like MNS', I would offer this analysis and opinion, based upon what anyone can see on his website. He started in 2010 and is offering around 75 strains, it seems.

This dude has bred out 75 stable strains in 4 years, huh? Where as Shantibaba has only managed barely more than half that number in decades. That tells you a little something about how well bred his seeds are. Or aren't.

Add to that his philosophy:

Our work is not meant to replicate the "mothers", but to compliment the genetics by breeding with superior males.

Maybe it is just me, but I dunno what the hell that means for his breeding objectives. Maybe that is his 'cover' for a lack of consistency in seed? I dunno, just speculating ...

On top of that, if you look at a lot of those pics, the guy could use a little help in the nutrient area. Some of those plants aren't just a little zapped, but pretty overnuted, probably with some type of bud swell product, using too much to try to make his stuff look good for the camera.

(EDIT): Add to that I wouldn't be surprised if a little Photoshop was used to 'frosty up da beeotches', make 'em look like they are the most swollen trich loaded buds around. Not saying he did, just wouldn't be surprised to find out after looking at a few of the pics, like this one of his AfghanAbusive - not a real natural looking contrast ... :

AfghanAbusive_bigthumb.jpg


Based on all of that, and my experience, I would say he and MNS aren't in the same league when it comes to actual, real breeding.

The guy you are talking about looks to me like a pollen chuckin' seeder. I don't know and am not asserting it as fact, but that is the overall impression I have at this point.

And me personally, I wouldn't buy from him, just because I am so over all of that pollen chunkin', 'creating' 75 strains in 4 years, without ever being a good grower. You can find a lot of growing mistakes in many 'breeders' gardens. That, before anything else, will prevent me from buying seeds from someone. How the hell can you actually know the genetics you are breeding when you can't grow them yourself without burning the shit out of them and stressing them? You can't ...

But, you can probably find people that have grown his stuff and will speak well of it. You then have to determine what kind of grower that info is coming from ...

There are actually some older Colorado strains. Who the hell really knows, but there is one take that has the Chemdawg/Diesel stuff coming out of Colorado, originally. That those seeds came out of stuff called PBud grown in SW Colorado in the Durango area. OG has been tied up in it, too.

We don't have the outdoor growing environment, overall, so Colorado has been way outshadowed for supply by the Emerald Triangle, but there has been really good weed in Colorado for a while. It was over a decade ago when I read it, but the major Denver newspaper carried a little story that named Colorado as the state with the highest population, per capita, of adult pot smokers. Colorado has always been filled with stoners and has always been tolerant of weed. Lot 'o weed in the mountains ...

Hell, the first dude arrested on the 193-whatever year- Tax Stamp Act was in Colorado.

That's the best I can answer that question, although I really didn't and it was a long as hell answer ...
__________________
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

- Seldom Seen Smith

Last edited by PNutGallery; 06-10-2014 at 07:36 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 06-10-2014, 02:25 PM
weezy's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 878
Default

4 years ago is when he started his seed company not breeding I'd guess. He uses 1 male for most of his crosses. Plus this guy has shown on forums doing over 100 light grows with this kind of space, you can speed up nature pretty quick. So I wouldn't jump to a bunch of conclusions just yet.
__________________
Find the peace...
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 06-10-2014, 02:29 PM
weezy's Avatar
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 878
Default

Also most breeder pictures are of test growers pictures. Shanti does this.
__________________
Find the peace...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 06-10-2014, 05:16 PM
PNutGallery's Avatar
Junior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2014
Location: Colorado
Posts: 13
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by weezy View Post
Also most breeder pictures are of test growers pictures. Shanti does this.
Yea, I am definitely jaded on it all and jump to conclusions on it easily. Concerning the test grow stuff, I know it rolls that way, but multiple pics of different strains are showing the same over nuting, to the same extent. Some of those pics are his ...

And while test grow pics are definitely a norm, I would bet guys like Shanti and a few others have actually grown out more individual plants from the strains they breed. I just don't think that 4 years is enough time to actually breed 75 strains - and know how they grow out, what they are capable of, etc. Like really know.

If this guy is donkin' pollen from one male on basically any strain that comes his way with a good name, like Kush, OG, Trainwreck, etc., well, I will stand by my 'dude is probably a pollen chuckin' seeder' assessment. He appears, at this point to me, to be a Seeder, not a Breeder.

I, personally, don't see how 75 random strains out of one male can be called a real breeding operation. Just my opinion, which you, or anyone else is free to have another take on without my panties gettin' all bunched up. He doesn't seem to have any real breeding objectives for selection purposes, just 'what catchy named strain can I cross my male to'.

I want to iterate that I am jaded overall on a lot of this, lol, and I am not trying to dissuade you from trying his stuff. After all, that is one of the only real ways to know - to get some of his beans and grow them out. I was just doin' the forum thang - one person asks another their opinion and that person gives it, usually not holding back much on da net.

You're going to have to get some of his beans and let us know how they grow. Me? Well, there are a couple more things from Shanti I want to try, based upon growning his stuff in the past, that I haven't yet grown. His stuff has actually near the top of my list for next seed purchase for a bit.

And I also feel that some of Shanti's stuff has a place in breeding programs, that they are a more refined, stabilized strain.

I'm just a random knucklehead that hasn't grown any of his stuff, so take my opinion on his operation with a grain of salt, of course. I am making surface judgements, to be sure, but judgements based off my experiences.

Git 'er done, weezy. Get some of his beans and let us know how they grow. Everything else is just internet banter, including anything I say about it all.

I wouldn't mind taking a look at his large grows, if you have a link handy ...
__________________
One man alone can be pretty dumb sometimes, but for real bona fide stupidity, there ain't nothing can beat teamwork.

- Seldom Seen Smith
Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are On
Pingbacks are On
Refbacks are On



All times are GMT. The time now is 04:32 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
SEO by vBSEO 3.6.0 PL2
All rights reserved, MR NICE SEEDBANK, NL