oldschoolhaze`s afghan x haze under led

hehe this is the price of shutting down like i did, i normally work with 10-20 plants at one time. i admit i shouldn't have started my resurgence with a haze hybrid but i wanted a challenge or so i said, now im am just feeling sad and dejected . should have gone for something easier
ps thanks Podencoid ive put a cutting of the same pheno in a party plastic cup some while back and its lush and green with zero problems. it is me who is doing it to them
 
apologies

well i apologize for the first part of the thread and i assure that it was much harder to watch these plants constantly go into shock from my perspective.

ok well i hope this is going to be the phoenix that rises from the ashes . i am going to have to restart with 2 clones that have just rooted in root sponges

*note i only have the touchy pheno as the more indica clone hasn't come back yet it's rooted, it's just not growing. well i will give her my patience and hopefully she will return

i hope both of these will have a permanent quarter in my tent :D
 
Hey Osh, I am growing under led aswell. I cut my feedings down in strenght by about 30%. The feeding will go further since the evaporation rate of the water is slow. Also I would tell when to water by the weight of the pot since temps stay below 30c for me.
 
thank you devindica i have really changed my tactics now, feeding from the bottom of the pot seems to be the winner but a few other things aswell including trying to give them 0.8ml/l very low feeds of terra flores the overwatering was the main problem

peace

photos of clones and mother clone soon
 
right guys and dolls i have pictures of two clones of the afgxhaze (haze dom) and the picture of the mother plant

the clones

i used root-it sponges for the initial rooting process because a buddy recently turned me on to them. they took 10-13 days to root both of them in a heated propagator under the 45 watt blue cfl after showing roots and almost outgrowing the cubes. i planted them into solo clear party cups for 2-3 weeks then i transplanted again into some square 11cm pots so they are just getting over that transplant 2-3 days ago i use a mix of coco and hydrolecca(clay balls)

nutrient changes now being fed coco a + b 7-8ml per 5l (i will consider upping the doseage in a week)
4-5 ml of plant magic magne cal + per 5l

mother is being fed the same nurtient mix

THE SCOURGE
i have cleaned the entire of all areas and peroxide bathed the top of the coco because i was sure it was pithyium (mold) common in coco after the applications the plants left shock and started to uptake nutrients again you might even get a crap harvest shot if they truly perk up but i wont promise anything:D

peace and good growing :D
 

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Hi OSH

Good to see you back in the saddle - the clones look promising.

Watering from the bottom, eh? I might try this. I also need to have a bit of pause after my current grow finishes for a Peroxide wash down.

Hope it all works out.

Atb
 
yeah from the bottom changed the game then i pick the pot up give it a slight tip to one side to release whats still caught in the drainage layer of clay balls.
Always nice to hear from you pal i got so close to changing back to soil with the stress. but more theory and reading i made changes that had positive effects finally lol they even got real sunlight while i was doing the massive job of cleaning everything i could

i'm thinking if everything goes well will put them into floral production in 2-3 weeks. God knows what the real growth pattern of these is like in flower because i haven't seen it yet :rolleyes:

just glad i could finally do some real damage control for once :eek:

peace and bring me some nice bud shots pal :)
 
Hey Oldschool,

I wouldnt go as far as to say its the genetics are giving you such a rough time. I would look to the coco as the culprit. I bet if you had some good soil laying around like black gold, ph your water to 6.3 or so and easy on the nutrients and tadah you have nice plants. Oh ya and you just water a little and increase as they fill the roots out, and then you water until a little run off and your golden. Make sure you always add about 40-50 % perlite to your soil for good aeration. Now with coco its a whole other ball game. Everyone thinks because it kinda looks like soil that it should be treated as such. Well thats just wrong, sorry if thats a rough way to put it but its the truth. In coco your plants are looking to you for everything they need, the medium has no nutritional value. If anything I think it competes with plants for nutrients. So what you should do is this. First off if you do not sure R/O water I would recommend it. Your plants will need a high level of Mg since it binds to coco and is then unavailable to the plant. I always supplement calmag from botanicare at a minimum 5 ml per gal. Usually I am in the 7 ml per gal range in veg. If the plants show yellow between the veins (Mg deficiency) I will spray the plants with epsom salt at 1/4 tsp per gal. You can also add that too your nutrient solution but I would watch your calmag in that case Another thing with coco you will see is it hates to dry out it is meant to be kept moist. If you are having issues with roots first off always use Myco max or great white etc. I could explain the rest of how to water and such in coco but this article below will do that for me. The next thing is coco is very specific on nutrient up take in relaionship to ph. You should always be at 5.8 in veg and can go up in mid flower to around 6. Hope you have the ability to make these changes, otherwise you will continue to have issues and my best reccomendation would be to use soil for your medium you will have much better results.

Hi all

I found this interesting article talking about coco and run off:

Cocopeat and Watering: Mike Biggs - agronomist

In Hydroponics today, Cocopeat or Coconut Coir is now commonly being used by a large variety of gardeners. Over the last couple of years it has grown in popularity to the point that it rivals other systems in its use. As popular as it is however, it presents unique problems when compared with using inert media such as expanded clay.

Watering represents the first major difference. Even though inert media such as expanded clay hold a certain amount of water, they also have much larger air spaces than cocopeat. These air spaces allow the plant roots to easily obtain their necessary oxygen as well as water. In the case of cocopeat, these air spaces, or pores, are quite small. This results in these pores being easily filled with water displacing the air. Cocopeat thus holds more water than a medium like expanded clay. After drainage, the manufacturers suggest cocopeat holds around 250mls-300mls of easily available water per litre of cocopeat. How much of that water is actually available is also dependent on osmotic pressure of the medium or solution. For instance, at an E.C. of 3.5 (cF 35) there is only half the amount of water available to the plant compared with an E.C. of 0.5 (cF 5).

Frequency and duration of watering seems to create the most confusion when growing in cocopeat. As there are a large number of variables it is only possible to give general guidelines.
When estimating water requirements you need to take account of the cocopeat grade, plant water use and the climatic conditions. There three accepted methods of determining how much water to give your plants.

1/ Volume or Weight Measurement

As the easily available water holding capacity of cocopeat is, according to the manufacturers, generally about 250mls to 300mls per litre of cocopeat you will be able to calculate the total amount of water available to each plant by multiplying the number of litres of peat by .25. E.g. you have 10 litres of cocopeat in a pot. The calculation is therefore 10 x 0.25 =2.5 litres of water available to the plant. This assumes that you are starting with cocopeat that has been flushed with water/nutrient and drained. As you don’t want the available water to drop below 50% you will need to water again when the plant has used 1.25litres. So, how do you know when this has occurred? You can use scales under a pot and check the weight after watering. When the plant has used 1.25 litres of water the pot will weigh 1.25kgs less. You would need to check the scales frequently as the plant will grow and put on weight daily. After one crop cycle you will have a pretty good idea of the amount of water (nutrient solution) required with each irrigation.
Instead of weighing the plants, you can also measure the volume of runoff. For example, a plant in 10Ltrs of cocopeat that has used 50% of its 2.5ltrs of available water will require at least 1.25Ltrs of liquid. If in this case you were to add 2Ltrs you would only get (2Ltrs – 1.25Ltrs = 750mls of run off).
This is working with the same figures as above, i.e. assuming the cocopeat is holding 250mls-300mls of water/liter. You will often hear that cocopeat holds ten times its own weight in water. This is for absolutely dry cocopeat and should not be mistaken for the water available to the plant. Total water and available water are not the same thing, total water refers to the total volume of water retained by the cocopeat but as discussed this total volume may not all be available to the plant due to osmotic pressure.

2/ Evaporation Measurement

Using an evaporimeter will give you a very good idea of how much water has been lost to transpiration which can then be replaced through irrigation. An evaporimeter is essentially a pan with an open top which is filled with water. The water in the pan evaporates over time and the amount of water needed to refill it after 24hrs is measured. This amount of water is then given to the plants over the next 24hr period. Generally, a plant factor is calculated and added to the water amount. This plant factor is a calculation used to determine how much water a plant would transpire in relation to evaporation from the pan. Put simply, a plant will use a different amount of water when compared to evaporation according to its size and the type of plant it is. Thus a large plant will use more water and a small plant will use less water than the evaporation figure. Usually, this would end up being about 150% for large plants grown under lights.
Another way is by calculating the usage according to the climate of the area. A large (1.5 metre high x 2m wide) plant on a hot day (35oC outside) and with maximum ventilation in summer in a Mediterranean climate can use as much as 12 litres of water a day. In a 10 litre pot, this plant will need to be watered 6 to 8 times per day with 2 to 3 litres of water each time. You do need to have some water running to waste, normally 20% to 40% of the amount of the input water. Use correspondingly less with smaller plants, in cooler climates and in winter By way of example, it is entirely possible that a small plant growing in an environment with temperatures ranging between 12oC – 25oC may only need watering once every three to five days. Keep an eye on the drain water. If it starts to come through the bottom of the pot well before the irrigation cycle stops then the medium was probably already wet and you will need to water less.

3/ Leachate (run off) measurement for tap or ground water and R.O water.

This technique requires you to measure the conductivity of the water draining from the plants after irrigation. This is perhaps the most practical method for indoor growers.
First you measure the conductivity of the fresh nutrient solution. After irrigating, measure the conductivity of the leachate (run off). This is the water draining from the bottom of the pot. This should measure about 3CF; 0.3E.C. or about 240ppm higher than the original nutrient solution. If the drainage water conductivity is higher than these guidelines, then you are not irrigating enough and you should increase frequency and volume of irrigation. If the conductivity is lower and you are not using de-ionised water and the plants are more than about three weeks old, then you are probably giving them too much water. As cocopeat drains well, this is not as big a problem as under watering. However, it is possible to over water and thus deprive plant’s roots of essential oxygen. With all run to waste systems, you would usually need to have between 20% to 40% running out of the medium depending on the quality of the water supply and the stage of growth of your plants. A safe minimum figure is about 30% run to waste but it may be less when the plants are small and much more with larger plants and water that is a bit saline. Generally, in the first couple of weeks of growth you will get a lot of the water running through the pot as at this stage, uptake is low but a reasonable amount of water is required to keep the medium moist. In this case there is often no change in the conductivity between what goes in and what comes out. That is, if you water with one litre of water, you will get most of that one litre of water draining out. Try to water young plants in such a way that you get just a little bit of drainage.

With larger plants the idea behind giving an amount of water that will produce the 20% to 40% run off is to wash out the unused nutrient salts and the accumulated sodium chloride (salt) that is introduced into the medium along with the bore or tap water. If you are in doubt then 40% run to waste would be a happy medium. It is a good idea to give two or three waterings with plain water once week to help flush out salts. On no account should you do this for more than one day at a time. If you are using very hard water you should flush the medium with a mild nutrient solution rather than plain water.

For R.O water the same rules don’t quite apply. If there is no accumulation of unwanted salts, the conductivity of the leachate is unlikely to rise above that of the input solution. If the leachate is kept 0.3 E.C. below the input solution it will be about right. This situation is unlikely as the peat has its own salt and readily retains salts. If it does happen you know your cocopeat has been well flushed. The amount of water run to waste in this case, will usually be closer to 10%-20% as opposed to 20% - 40%. Incidentally, as in all growing, the best crops will always be obtained with R.O water, rain water or water with very low background conductivity.

So why aren’t the plants watered continuously as in NFT, for instance? Coupled with the need for water is the need for air. Cocopeat, along with soils and potting mixes of all sorts consist of solid particles interspersed with air spaces. When the medium is saturated just after a watering, the air is driven out of the medium to be replaced by water. As the medium begins to get drier through plant uptake, drainage and evaporation, air begins to re-enter. This process continues until there is no further water to be lost.

A question often asked is “is it possible to have a recirculating system using cocopeat?” The answer is yes. Our trials have shown that there is no problem running a recirculating system provided you use a nutrient designed for cocopeat and you renew the cocopeat after each growing cycle. This recirculating system is not continuous as in NFT but is intermittent. You don’t change your irrigation practices but just re-use the drainage water. It pays to dump the solution weekly as the nutrient will become too unbalanced if left too long. Also, it pays to use Regen-A-Root, Bio Balancer and Wiltguard in the solution to prevent pathogen build-up. The guidelines regarding conductivity of solution and drainage still apply to recirculating solutions. In this case, just maintain the solution within the desired range with the addition of either water or nutrient but in general, you will find that the nutrient conductivity will be constantly rising. The frequency and duration of watering guidelines also apply.
We would suggest that you water a minimum of four times a day for large plants and adjust the duration according to the leachate conductivity. Even though this seems a bit complicated, in practice it is quite easy. One of these irrigations can be at night. In practice, it is better to irrigate smaller amounts more frequently and the exact amount can be worked out using the weighing and/or leachate conductivity methods.

We have sometimes seen growers putting some other material, such as expanded clay, in the bottom of the pot to hopefully improve drainage. Does this work? The short answer is no. Even though the speed of the water travelling through the pot may increase other problems such a larger saturated area (perched water table) at the bottom of the pot may arise. All media have a certain amount of saturated area (called the perched water table) at the bottom when water has stopped draining from the pot. This area is always the same depth in the same medium regardless of the depth of the pot. For example, if the particular cocopeat you are using has a perched water table of 4mm in a 200mm deep pot then the perched water table will still be 4mm even in a shallow dish. This means that there is always a saturated area at the bottom of the pot straight after watering. Obviously, how long it remains saturated will depend on how often you water but it is easily possible for it to be saturated most of the time. The plant roots in this saturated area are deprived of oxygen. In a deep pot, the ratio of saturated medium to total medium is quite small. In a shallow pot this ratio increases markedly. If you put drainage material in the bottom of the pot then you are just making the medium shallower and increasing the ratio of saturated medium and the problem with this is that the ratio of air to water reduces and the plant roots are deprived of oxygen in this more saturated medium. If you are trying to lighten the mix then you are better to mix perlite thoroughly with the cocopeat in a ratio of about 60% cocopeat to 40% perlite.
 
easy weezy :) sorry that comment about it not being a fair representation can be mis-leading im not bashing the genetics they are awesome to have survived the trials i have been having it was more meant as don't look at this and think this is what this plant/strain is like thanks buddy i read that and it seems to ring true

i am using water that has had two air stones in the jug for 24hrs im sure that counts as r.o and i have a ph meter but not a tds/ppm or ec meter(s)
what i notice as you water is the coco expands touching the next dry particle and releasing the water to it like osmosis between the empty cells so there isnt much point watering for run off it's just too saturated (imo)

so almost switched back to soil but i seem to be working it out:)

TAO thanks for dropping by buddy i have a look over at your thread too. nice mango shots you entered in the competition and you would have thought i had murdered a entire litter of puppies and eaten them (JK) the way karma's been treating me:D
 
I know you weren't bashing the genetics, I guess I should have said that in a different way. I was just saying I think growing in coco and being uneducated on how cannabis grows properly in it was your issue. I'm glad you are seeing better results. And air stone might remove chlorine depending on the kind used if your using city water. But it doesn't make it r/o that is a filter that removes everything from the water so you know what your plants are getting because you put the nutrients in it. It kinda goes hand in hand with coco/hydro I urge you to reread that article if you didn't read it when I first posted it. What you think happens in coco is nice, but that article is done by scientists and is proven. I don't want to come off rude ask around most people here enjoy interaction with me, and few have ever had issues with me. But until you water the correct way with the proper ppm and oh you will have issues maybe not very noticeable and if that's good enough for you then you have no worries.
 
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text and writing is not my preferred method of getting information across i would much prefer to have a conversation so my writing has a rough edge that might make me seem passive aggressive or judgey but i am also a nice guy at the nice forum :D oh im a bit eccentric (easy) is a greeting where i am from said with a smile on your face to a good friend.

yeah buddy i read it but i feel i will have to read it a few more times truthfully to get everything from it

peace and thank you for stopping in putting information on the table
 
so guys and dolls today when lights come on i watered untill there was 5-10% runoff like the previous guide/study says thank you mr. Weezey for the information again :) good job i have some deep trench grow trays to catch the water
fed 13ml of canna a/b per 5l
i also upped the calmag to 9ml per 5l
this is for the flowering plants

i folar sprayed yesterdays 8ml coco a/b and 5ml per 5l of calmag mix onto the clones and vegetating plants hoping they can absorb some of the cal/mag

peace everyone
 
Sounds like you have a good plan for your babies. Just don't let the coco dry out and you should be golden. What's the ph of your nutrient solution? Also that seems like a high concentration for a foliar, but since I haven't used those specific nutrients I can't really say. Just keep an eye on them if they like the spray they will show it in the next few days. Make sure to never spray with lights on and lower your exhaust and circulation fans. Spray both sides of the leaf but the underside of the leaf will absorb most of the nutrient. I also like to do a couple fine mists a few minutes apart rather then completely drenching them. Then every third spray (I spray 3 days apart so I'm referring to the spray after the 6th day) I use just water and give them a good spray to clean off the leaf. Also if you struggle with pm ever, use silica when you spray and raise your ph of the spray to above 8. This will change the leaf surface ph which pm can't live on an alkaline surface. It will also strengthen your leaf marketing them less susceptible to pests. I'm really hoping things continue to improve for you. I was really struggling with coco too in the beginning and it was super discouraged. I have spent a lot of time trying to learn what it wants to be happy. If you are using tap water I wouldn't use that much calmag I use 7 ml because I use r/o water which is stripped of all nutrients. I would be more in the 4-5 ml if I used tap and adjust from there. If your using full strength recommendation by the manufacturer it might be a little high being the size of your plants. Also when you let coco dry out the nutrients that are in it re crystallize making them highly concentrated which can have negative effects on your plant. Try to water when it feels like 50 percent of the water is gone that you added during feeding. But don't let it go past a couple days even if the top of the coco doesn't look dry water it. If you see a white deposit on the top layer of your coco I believe it to be from not watering enough and calcium deposits. I don't have any of the pictures from when the plants where messed up, I give you props for posting because when my plants struggle it's hard for me to look at them :( but if you go the my thread (Weekly's Chem 4 grow) you can see I am adjusting well I think to coco.
Oops didn't see the feed was to flowering plants. Sounds great! Back it off the last week or so
 
wow you mentioned things i forgot, good to have you around here buddy ph for yesterdays fed to all was 5.8 which was sprayed over the leaves and top of coco to keep it moist
but todays heavier feed which included 2.5ml growth technology's silica ph up potassium silicate i think we are referring to the same thing here? :) so the ph was 6.0 as advised :D

i will have to stop in and look at your thread weezy later tonight.

please call me on any information that i miss, it will make me better at documenting all of this.
 
1st day of flower

CLONES
i have re-potted the lovely looking clones and put them into flower but to do this i had to remove and kill some of the population in the tent i do feel quite sad about it but they were sickly looking messes just a few tiny buds will most likely dry to 2.0g and that is a generous estimation :eek:

spent ages potting everything and cleaning the used pots but i can feel better in the knowledge that i got done everything right

photos of the clones looking quite dandy and happy just after transplant

i will not be beaten this time around :D

thanks for checking in on me, peace and good growing.
 

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Looking healthy oldschool. You won't be disappointed when you get a zip off that plant compared with the 2g you were going to get :)
 
thanks weezey i totally agree i know these plants have serious potential to be brought out of them thanks again for a little guidance buddy really helped me out :D i just started treating the whole thing different than my previous grows with coco and that was my downfall i don't mind posting pictures of my 2g if you really want to see it?:eek: haha catcha soon pal

peace
 
somewhere in the previous posts (got done everything right) haaaaa u know i was getting to the end of the gardening work and i'd done all the fiddly stuff so had a few rips lol :):)
 
so i decided to update on day 5 because everythings going well and i had the time
clone A the one thats 3-5 cm taller and wider i was astounded at it's growth over the past few days i'm sure it has easily doubled in size since the other pics

clone B stretched quite nicely not as much as the other still i am happy to see they are happy except a tiny tiny bit of dis-coloration on the leaf tips maybe too much cal mag but it does say on the bottle 1-2 ml/l in hydro circumstances if they were being fed too much i would imagine the ghosty leaf on the bottom would be green by now so i think i am on track with my thinking and feeding:)

2 pics of clone A because i wanted to show you the staggered bud sites and just seems to be putting out a fan leaf per node which is quite beautiful

1 pic of clone B looking healthy maybe i rumbled the roots abit when i transplanted it because they are the same you would expect similar stretch but one was bigger hmm just wasting servers pace with my thoughts:D i am happy with my plants though

peace OSH
 

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