F1 hybrid or inbred line?

Devil is a stabilize hybrid it's called a F1 but it has been breed at least 4 generations to stabilize it. Shanti has explained the process in previous posts ive read it at Ic mag but they are still concidered F1 Hybrids. I hope this helps
 
I still can't figure out how a 4th generation inbreed is an F1...anyone care to show me that definition?

Hey Sensi,

I’m not familiar with Devil or it’s heritage but in regards to your question about inbreeding and F1’s, this explanation may be of some help. Although Wiki is not the best source for info, this explanation does have some merit (in bold) when you apply it to inbreeding and linebreeding with cannabis.


Production of F1 hybrids

In plants

Crossing two genetically different plants produces a hybrid seed (plant). This can happen naturally, and includes hybrids between two different species (for example, peppermint is a sterile F1 hybrid of watermint and spearmint). In agronomy, the term “F1 hybrid” is usually reserved for agricultural cultivars derived from two different parent cultivars. These F1 hybrids are usually created by means of controlled pollination, sometimes by hand-pollination. For annual plants such as tomato "hybrids" and "hybrid inbred maize, F1 hybrids must be produced each season.

For mass-production of F1 hybrids with uniform phenotype, the parent plants must have predictable genetic effects on the offspring. Inbreeding and selection for uniformity for a number of generations ensures that the parent lines are almost homozygous. The divergence between the parent lines promotes improved growth and yield characteristics in the F1 offspring through the phenomenon of heterosis ("hybrid vigour").

Two populations of breeding stock with desired characteristics are subject to inbreeding until the homozygosity of the population exceeds a certain level, usually 90% or more. Typically this requires more than ten generations. After this happens, both populations must be crossed while avoiding self-fertilization. Normally this happens in plants by deactivating or removing male flowers from one population, taking advantage of time differences between male and female flowering or hand-pollinating.”

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F1_hybrid
 
What he's getting at Betterhalf, is that an inbred line cannot by definition be an F1 hybrid. Once it is incrossed even once, it is no longer an F1 hybrid.
 
f1 or s1

Devil is a stabilize hybrid it's called a F1 but it has been breed at least 4 generations to stabilize it. Shanti has explained the process in previous posts ive read it at Ic mag but they are still concidered F1 Hybrids. I hope this helps
isnt it an s1 now? stable hybrid?
 
f1 or s1

Devil is a stabilize hybrid it's called a F1 but it has been breed at least 4 generations to stabilize it. Shanti has explained the process in previous posts ive read it at Ic mag but they are still concidered F1 Hybrids. I hope this helps
isnt it an s1 now? stable hybrid?
 
no an s1 is a selfed seed. so a female that has been forced into producing male flowers then self pollinated. creating s1 copies of the original plant.

i steer clear of s1's myself they tend to lack vigour and yield in my opinion. they never really stand up to the quality of the mother they are imitating.
 
S1 means Selfed which is a type of feminization Stableization is different it takes 4 different times of breeding the stain to sablize it. Once stable it's called a F1 hybrid

An F1 hybrid is the first cross of two distinctly different lines.

I'm sure there's some good stuff in Devil whatever it actually is.
I remember Ronin's description of it really made me want to try it.
 
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What he's getting at Betterhalf, is that an inbred line cannot by definition be an F1 hybrid. Once it is incrossed even once, it is no longer an F1 hybrid.

Hello wonkadonk,

I think the term F1 is loosely used, especially with cannabis. In fact F1 is defined many different ways if you look it up. You’ll see it’s defined as a cross between “unrelated parents” or “different cultivars” or “purebred parents” or “homozygous parents”, etc. And inbreeding is also mentioned, usually referring to the parent lines.

What would you call it if you made a cross of two different varieties, crossed the F1’s and then started working 2 separate lines from the F2’s to lock down different traits, say to F6. Hypothetically let’s say both lines are being selected for potency but one line is also being selected for flower structure and the other is selected for early flowering. You then cross a male and female of these lines back together. Would this be an F7? An inbred line? F1? The resulting hybrid would most likely only be able to be replicated by using the same 2 parents and if you crossed this new hybrid the progeny would most likely not breed true. I’m sure a lot of seed companies would call it an F1, even though it was inbred.
 
With cannabis F1 means two parents distinct from each other are crossed... plain and simple...

In order to make a "stablized F1" a breeder will typically start with a batch of F2 seeds and line breed multiple individual lines from it... Each line could have it's own name or the names could be related but each line is distinct in the characteristics it produces.

Take 1 line and cross it with another line and bam... "stabilized F1"

I believe this is actually how or very similar to what has happened in order to produce these so called stable F1s...

Black Widow is breed similarly if I remember correctly.
I wonder how many more of the MNS lineup is breed in this manner?
 
Hello wonkadonk,

I think the term F1 is loosely used, especially with cannabis. In fact F1 is defined many different ways if you look it up. You’ll see it’s defined as a cross between “unrelated parents” or “different cultivars” or “purebred parents” or “homozygous parents”, etc. And inbreeding is also mentioned, usually referring to the parent lines.

What would you call it if you made a cross of two different varieties, crossed the F1’s and then started working 2 separate lines from the F2’s to lock down different traits, say to F6. Hypothetically let’s say both lines are being selected for potency but one line is also being selected for flower structure and the other is selected for early flowering. You then cross a male and female of these lines back together. Would this be an F7? An inbred line? F1? The resulting hybrid would most likely only be able to be replicated by using the same 2 parents and if you crossed this new hybrid the progeny would most likely not breed true. I’m sure a lot of seed companies would call it an F1, even though it was inbred.

With cannabis F1 means two parents distinct from each other are crossed... plain and simple...

In order to make a "stablized F1" a breeder will typically start with a batch of F2 seeds and line breed multiple individual lines from it... Each line could have it's own name or the names could be related but each line is distinct in the characteristics it produces.

Take 1 line and cross it with another line and bam... "stabilized F1"

I believe this is actually how or very similar to what has happened in order to produce these so called stable F1s...

Black Widow is breed similarly if I remember correctly.
I wonder how many more of the MNS lineup is breed in this manner?

Nice posts! I think these breeding strategies probably go unspoken or unknown to most. It's nice to see them laid out in a easy to understand way. It's alot of work and steps getting to that optimal end product. From that strategy, one could produce seed stock thats has:

-vigor from the divergent lines
-consistent traits from the homozygous f6's
-f2's that are hard to reproduce the same outcome as the f1's (harder for knockoffs)

-mp
 
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