Critical Mass hermaphrodite question

lomp

New member
Hey guys!

I love critical mass and have grown a few crops of it now. I have only grown thirty phenos so far and have isolated a couple of phenotypes that I am really pleased with.
Unfortunately I keep having issues with hermies. I just wanted to ask if this is a common problem or perhaps it's something that I am doing wrong... I have no light leaks and my timer schedule seems consistent.
The plants are very healthy and vigorous right up until harvest. Just slightly seeded.

The first couple of crops I flowered the CM under four feet tall which I understand can produce hermies... been using clones last few crops and have removed major hermaphrodite phenos.. still have some seeds.

I find CM to be a beneficial medical strain. Thanks!

Thanks for your time.
 

musashi

Site Moderator
Staff member
Simple solution. It's one thing to put up with some killer plant that is PM sensitive and quite another to keep something like that in your stable. That dog will come back to bite you.

Aloha, M
 

professorjj

New member
If you are consistently having issues with multiple pheno's this would suggest to me that you have an environmental stress that is triggering the hermaphrodite expression.
Temperature
Light stresses (light in the dark period/short photoperiod)
pH instability
Would be the main triggers.
If you think you have everything dialed and you are continually having issues I think you may need to investigate and look a little closer. I think you are missing something.
Can you provide more details on your set up/techniques?
Is it possible that there is another grow in the vicinity?
 

Broseidon

New member
I again would echo the professor:
More details please. Especially on the setup but maybe also mind enlightening us a bit more about your experience? How long been growing and such.. How long been using current setups, been growing only CM with it or other strains, how they been behaving etc.


Now let us assume everything is flawless on your side (setup etc.).

Next I would suggest what you mentioned yourself:
Dial in the setup to the strain in particular. So if you know that CM doesn't like to be flowered from clone but craves some veg before flowering, then try that out first maybe?

If that also doesn't help I would simply suggest what musashi suggested: Try a new mum.

If the issue persists after those steps I would contact Shanti and ask for a few replacements to find a better mum yet again.

CM should not be hermie prone. Matter of fact I have read so many strain profiles, grow logs etc. etc. and MRN seeds do not have a reputation of hermying whatsoever.

It obviously can still happen but it should be a rarity. Meaning that if it happened to you with one mum, it should be unlikely it happens again with another.
 

lomp

New member
Wow thanks a lot

Lots of good info there and I really appreciate your time.

Musashi : That dog will come back and bite. Well said and exactly my concern.

PROFESSORJJ: I appreciate your comment. I have selected down to two CM phenos and have just completed a new grow environment. Temp is 80f humidity 50 %. EC 1.2 AND PH is just over 6 [ using liquid ph kit .. yellow with a green hue ] lol. They are one week into flower and vigorous and healthy so see what happens. Growers nearby! OMG. yes! I wonder...
\
Broseidon: Thanks for your comment. I did flower these from clone.. they were vegged to about two and a half feet before flipping them. I'll see what happens this cycle in the new grow space and maybe get some new CM stock if the problem persists.

It's good to know that the hermie trait is likely something on my end..

Thanks again, appreciate.
 

Broseidon

New member
Oh but we didn't say it is necessarily something on your end (at least I didn't).
Just wanted to rule it out for sure, thus asking for more info.

This is not a fanboyclub where the genetics are flawless and it's always the n00b grower.
Might very well be the CM pheno you selected which would be sad and require to start over in selecting a new one.
That would also mean that it is not on your end or your setup or something that you do but the particular pheno of this strain you selected.

Our posts were meant to reassure you that it is not a "common" trait in the CM line.

However, when breeders select a new mum, they also stress test it before using it for breeding.
Grow it in and outdoors, light stress it, stress it from training etc. etc.
This is all done to try and bring out any hermy traits.
I would assume only the potential mothers that do not hermy through all this ordeal will be considered solid breeding stock and used in future breeding.

I assume you did not do this, which hobby breeder/grower would do that? That would require 1-2 grows with the particular mum just to make sure it has no hermy trait in it. That's a lot of work and would take a lot of time.


But it is done, I surmise, to make sure that your situation does not happen. As even a not-hermy prone strain can exhibit hermy traits in particular individuals.


So basically (correct me if I am off base guys) we just wanted to eliminate the "your side" part to make sure you have to select another mum.
Cuz if it was something with your setup or "on your end" you might be able to continue working with the selected mum...

Stay frosty bro
 

lomp

New member
Thanks for your time!

Hey Brosidon.

Thanks for your time and input much appreciated.

I started on this CM journey a couple years ago.. quite a few cycles now.
Likely [ I am hoping ] the problem had something to do with my grow space
which is now all shiny and new and very manageable. If that was a problem it should not be any more. Time will tell. Starting week 2 of flower. If I need new CM stock shall know shortly. It's not a problem.

You're right about not testing it CM outdoors. I live on the coast in b.c. and anything that finishes end september / early october struggles due to wet and cold conditions. CM with it's dense bud structure wouldn't have a chance.
As far as stress testing goes.. maybe that is what was happening [unintentionally..] with last grow space haha.

Hobby growers: Indeed limited resources do not provide for proper testing or selection of parental stock.That's why we need pros like Shanti et al who have the resources, experience and proper breeding protocols to produce amazing strains that provide consistent results. I reckon that any strains that I work with will always be works-in-progress because there were always better parental selections available for the initial cross. Can live with that.
Having said that.. it's still a very pleasurable and rewarding experience to breed cannabis. It's the journey-not the destination imho. I am enjoying my CM experience.

Some people make their own wine...

So many strains... so little time.
 

musashi

Site Moderator
Staff member
I remember a time some time ago now when my environment wasn't perfect. I had one plant herm from another breeder. I don't know if it was my fault or not but it wasn't until I sat in the room while it was completely dark; standing and sitting and changing directions, everything looked good until I saw the slightest sliver of light coming from a power strip at a certain angle. As I was taking care of that SOB, I noticed another very dim sliver of light coming from my dehumidfier. That light went through the 4 layers of tape that I used to cover it! Only at a certain angle in a completely dark room was I able to see this. Fixed it and to this day I don't know if it was my fault or not but it pays to be diligent eh.

Aloha,
M
 

Broseidon

New member
Btw. Lomp, I didn't mean to belittle your breeding efforts or anything, eh?
Just saying, you and I and other hobby breeders, simply don't have the resources to do all the stress testing etc. (like you said as well).

For me as well, it will be impossible to test strains outdoors or different container sizes or lights for that matter.
All I can do is test how they handle topping, fimming, training in general and possibly how they behave when flowered from clone directly or after short/long veg etc.

That's just what my setup allows me to do, anything more will simply not be possible for me.
Same with my selection... If I could I would plant hundreds of seeds each time. But since I don't want to go hydro (where I could flower 30-40 plants simultaneously in small containers), I have to settle with popping about 20 seeds at a time since I want to go organic and need a certain container size to do so...

Let's see what your test results will be. If it was something environmental, then all the better, it might now be fixed.
If not, you would have to select new parent stock which would be a setback but not the end of the world and from my and other's opinion, the next CM parent you select should be unlikely to include any hermie traits.
 

lomp

New member
thanks again for the input.

Hi Musashi and Broseidon!

Hey guys I think I figured out the problem... lmao

It's Normalcy Bias!

The power went out yesterday.. like it does a couple or three times each month and has continued for a couple of years. I just got so used to it that it became " Normal ". An hour here.. two hours there.. no biggie.

Yesterday when the power went out I walked outside and fired up the genset that I purchased as a back up for my shiny new grow space.

Then I slapped my forehead.. Doh!

Think I found the problem...

Broseidon I really appreciate your comments [ and the others ] I
didn't take anything said personally and agree whole heartedly.

Time to go take care of buddies outside.. I'll be tending them with a very red face lol.
Musashi thanks.
I'll make damn sure that I double check for any slivers of light leaks as well. Thanks Guys!

so many strains.. so little time...
 

PatrickStar

New member
Losing power during lights on hasn't caused hermies in my experience. I used to live in a house that lost power the same way, ~2-3x's a month for usually 2hrs max. 50% of the time the power outage happened during the off part of 12/12 so no worries other than the carbon can. Once I dialed in the grow space to make it 100% light tight (like sit in the room for 5-10 min with lights off & every conceivable light source you have blaring outside the flower space) & made sure the canopy temperatures never exceeded 90 degrees, any herms were one and done seedplants.

When I started to try to push bloom with MKP based bloom boosters, I had plants herm that wouldn't if grown gently in an organic based setup. Top shooter sample bottle from H&G pushed ballsacks & true blooms from beneficial biologics sample pushed male clusters hard inside previously female flowers.

1. Genetics. Intersex is a scale From fully hermaphroditic to stable unless stressed to 99.999% male/female. All cannabis plants fall on it somewhere.

2. Light leaks during lights off period, or consistent inconsistencies (ya like that, lol) in the duration of the dark cycle. ie: 12 hours off one day, 14 the next, 11.5 another day, etc. Make sure your timers don't hang up on the trippers. It happens to ~10% of them after while. For me this has been the #1 grower-errored-cause of hermies.

3. Heat & humidity stress. Plants freak out if grown way outside of the Vapor Pressure Deficit (VPD). Generally anything over 90deg requires humidity levels that are too high to maintain & the plants respirates too fast & no matter how much water it has in the roots, it stress over maintaining hydration through the plant. Cause #2 for me.

4. Pests. Bugs will stress the plants. Spider mites & root aphids can cause touchy plants to go off if they are unaddressed.

5. Nutrients imbalances/toxicities. Like Bradley Nowell said - "Don't push me too far." Learn which of the 6 Macro nutrients (yes, 6, NPK & what else???) antagonize & facilitate the uptake of the others. Basically - if you add too much of something, it locks up another thing & manifests as "too little of the other thing".

6. Light intensity/lack thereof. Some plants neeeeed to feel the burn, some can;t take it. Rarely an issue, but I've seen it indoors with the most amazing outdoor cut I've ever run - Blue Knight. Put her in the shade iside & shes a fire low yielder. Run her under a bulb & she's herm city. Outside she triggered ~Mid July and was DONE by the first week of Sept. I've also run some extreme sativa expressions that would grow stunted & stressed flowers in low light indoors.

7. ???? I'm sure I'll do something else to screw with our beloved medicine plant, but so far, that's my list of sins, Father. I'm off to recite the 10 commandments of IPM & rap the lyrics to "Dr. Greenthumb" 5 times as penance.
 

Al Capone

New member
Lots of good info there and I really appreciate your time.

Musashi : That dog will come back and bite. Well said and exactly my concern.

PROFESSORJJ: I appreciate your comment. I have selected down to two CM phenos and have just completed a new grow environment. Temp is 80f humidity 50 %. EC 1.2 AND PH is just over 6 [ using liquid ph kit .. yellow with a green hue ] lol. They are one week into flower and vigorous and healthy so see what happens. Growers nearby! OMG. yes! I wonder...
\
Broseidon: Thanks for your comment. I did flower these from clone.. they were vegged to about two and a half feet before flipping them. I'll see what happens this cycle in the new grow space and maybe get some new CM stock if the problem persists.

It's good to know that the hermie trait is likely something on my end..

Thanks again, appreciate.
80f is a little warm can cause a hermie on a prone plant.

But are you seeing any nanners on the 2 cuts you are getting seed from? Their is a chance that you can have some pollen still floating around the only way to truly kill pollen is water so if you get any hermies in your room you are going to want to spray the entire room down with water to neutralize any remaining pollen.

Also over feeding and under feeding can cause problems their are many possibilities as well as just having herm prone genetics some handle stress better than others. I have also heard more than once a true female will not produce any pollen so selection and stress testing should really be done especially when breeding.

But even stress testing perfectly and all in breeding you still have them recessive genes.
 

lomp

New member
Thanks Guys

Patrickstar thanks for your considered post! I really appreciate the time you took and your input. I have addressed and reviewed all your suggestions.

Same for AlCapone. Thank you very much.
Four weeks in.. doing well no sign of nanners yet.
Looking good.

I'll get back to you guys in a few weeks with the results.

best regards,
lomp
 
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