Bringing back a strain

kndreyn

New member
I have a question some of you may be able to answer. There has been a strain that is a local legend in my area since around 1978. It was hands down the best smoke I've ever had. Very hashy taste and you have to use caution when smoking it. I have many stories of people passing out after a couple of hits from it. I was able to acquire it back around 2001, and after I had it a few years, it seemed to lose its taste and potency. So I let it go, hoping to some day acquire another cutting of it. Well, that finally has happened, but I'm finding that the original owners of the strain must have had the same luck that I had. It just doesn't taste the same, or have the kick it had.

My question is, would the genetics still be there if I were to try breeding this plant to try to reproduce it? I'm not sure what I would use for a male, but I feel my best bet would be to start with a Mr. Nice product. I've grown almost everything Shantibaba had back around 2001 - 2005, and my first thought would be to try Shit, since that was really my favorite strain, and is very old school. Any help anyone might have with this would be greatly appreciated.
 

corners

New member
I guess I should have posted this in the Breeders support and information forum. If a Mod wants to move it, please do.
Good chance the strain you got probably wasnt the same one you had back in the day. Its not easy to keep a clone around for a decade or more in a prohibition state. Also, shit happens sometimes and clones die.
 

kndreyn

New member
Good chance the strain you got probably wasnt the same one you had back in the day. Its not easy to keep a clone around for a decade or more in a prohibition state. Also, shit happens sometimes and clones die.
I'm just about 100% sure it's the same. I haven't actually acquired the cutting yet, but I've made arrangements for it to happen as soon as they have some available. But she gave me a sample. And while it's still very good, it's not quite the same as it was originally. In particular, the unique hashy flavor it had seems to be missing now, and the potency is down just a bit. I'll know for certain if it's the same one as soon as I get the cuttings. It had a rather unique characteristic to it of double serrated fan leaves. I've never had any other plant that had that.
 

kndreyn

New member
Maybe trying a strain that resemble the cut?
Maybe N5afgh, g13sk or devil?
Thanks Blackberry. The N5afgh would probably be close to its characteristics. What I'm mainly interested in is knowing is if there are hopes of bringing the original qualities of the strain back through breeding. I know cloning will only produce what it is in its current state. So I'm hoping the original genetics will still be there in the strain. I might try "selfing" it to see what that produces, but what I'd really like to do is find something to cross it with to look for a new copy of it. I've been smoking since 1969 and this was quite possibly the best I've ever had.
 

blackberry

New member
Sometimes what we remember it is not a true representation of the reality.
If the cut is really what you are looking for a S1 is probably your best bet.
I think it is most likelly that the cut remains the same or very close and what changed is your perception of a strong and good tasting plant.
If it is the later than you will have to make your own breeding to adjust the plant to your needs. Sound a really fun planning if you ask me.
 

kndreyn

New member
Sometimes what we remember it is not a true representation of the reality.
If the cut is really what you are looking for a S1 is probably your best bet.
I think it is most likelly that the cut remains the same or very close and what changed is your perception of a strong and good tasting plant.
If it is the later than you will have to make your own breeding to adjust the plant to your needs. Sound a really fun planning if you ask me.
I was growing it along with several elite cuts back then, including Katsu Bubba, Trainwreck, Ghost's OG, Genius, original C99, and many others, including most everything that Shantibaba offered, and this one stood out from all of them in both potency and taste. Something else that was really nice about it, there was very little or no odor from it unless you disturb it, brushed up against it, or when you cut it, then you got a pretty distinct cat piss odor.
 

blackberry

New member
"The cat piss smell associated with Haze is the result of inbreeding to the Haze. Inbreeding to siblings or half siblings, is less damaging than inbreeding to the same Haze plant.
NL5 was somewhat neutral in smell and when crossed with the Haze, it expressed the various genotypes behind the Haze very well. I have grown large numbers of NL5HzA and NL5HzC plants from seed. Considering that the HzA male was dead, I could only use it's daughters to put back to HzC.

This single inbreeding to the 1969 haze males exponentially increased the amount of cat piss types in the progeny, but still allowed a useful percentage of truly superior plants to shine through.
The average age of the NH grand parents is about 40. I don't believe that this can be said about anybody else's lines. They are more inbred, hence the cat piss.
I have a dream that a real Haze brother will contact me and tell me that he still has well preserved seeds from the 60's. Failing that, the '97 NH seeds offer the best hope for future hybrids.
N."
https://www.mrnice.nl/forum/4-talk-...-grail-ultimate-haze-hybrid-19.html#post58761

Personally I believe in SSH the catpiss comes from both the Haze and NL side..though I may be wrong.

The reason I say the above is this. First pure NL has been reported to have catpiss smelling phenos , many growers have reported this over the years.

Neville's Haze is also reported to have catpiss smell and NH is pure Haze crossed to NL5Haze.There is no skunk in NH.

Now in SSH I had 2-3 catpiss smelling plants , the first two were haze dominant slow finishers , the other catpiss smelling plant was the short NL/Haze pheno.
Great start! Just did a selection on a pack, so here's a few things I noticed.

The squat, wide leaved NL learners all had a few pollen sacks near the base toward the stalk, so I'd make sure to prune that area well on those phenotypes.

I only got 1 extreme haze type out of 12, her flowers were sparse with large, hard bracts. She smelled of tropical fruit and champagne. Super clear electric high.

The rest were somewhere inbetween, and nothing greatly stood out until after the cure. Its was one of the better yeilders and was uber sticky, but what stood out was the fierce cat piss smell. Straight ammonia. This plant was straight toxic in the potency department. Just absurdly strong.

Don't be too quick to cull before you've sampled is the best advice I could give. Only the extreme haze one was fussy with the nutes otherwise they were very easy plants to grow.

Good luck man, I'll be watching along
:):):)
 

Big Sur

Active member
Thanks Blackberry. The N5afgh would probably be close to its characteristics. What I'm mainly interested in is knowing is if there are hopes of bringing the original qualities of the strain back through breeding. I know cloning will only produce what it is in its current state. So I'm hoping the original genetics will still be there in the strain. I might try "selfing" it to see what that produces, but what I'd really like to do is find something to cross it with to look for a new copy of it. I've been smoking since 1969 and this was quite possibly the best I've ever had.
Not true about clones losing potency and changing over time. Your clones should be the same for 30-40 generations at least. Sports (variegated types) are rare in clones. Running and breeding seeds you will lose potency in about 4 generations if you do not select the best quality m&f for breeding, as Cannabis will use gene switching to adapt to the local climate and habitat that they are grown in, and rapidly. For that reason I do huge F1 runs and freeze the seeds, and rather than doing F2, F2, F4 runs. So later I just replant the F1s. I also run clones and have kept some for 10 or more generations. They are exactly the same as they were when I started with them. You can run down clones and they can become weak or spindly, but they can be revived to more enhanced vigor with rooting techniques. I believe what you are seeing in loss of clone quality is more likely due to your growing environment and/or methods and technique, or difference from when it was grown way back when.

Breeding will always introduce variables, and you are likely not going to get the same as what you have, but that depends on the stability of the original strain. If it is an indica-sativa cross, you are likely to get widely variable results. If it was a landrace strain the results will likely be less variable. You can use chemicals to force a male from a clone, and cross that with your fem cut for S1 seeds. You will also get fem seeds from doing that, but selfing as you call it will be a far better chance to get what you are looking for than cross breeding. Depending on how stable the strain is, the S1 results may or may not be similar, and they may or many not be stable or consistent. I tend to only breed IBL from landraces, so they are already stable and consistent. Or as in the case of Lebanese, they continue to produce the same two phenos that the landraces have. The more variable the genetics in the cut that you are trying to reproduce, the more variable the results are going to be however you breed them. Any added cross genetics will just make your results more variable and the chance of getting what you are after are greatly reduced. The more variety in the genes, the more plants that you will have to grow to find the few that you are after. My experience growing for 45 years now anyway.
 
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kndreyn

New member
Hi Big Sur, I think I remember you from CW back in the early 2000s?

I believe I somehow mislabeled a clone and ended up flowering the last original plant thinking I had a backup to take the next set of cuttings from. It was like one day it was this killer strain, then the next run it wasn't worth the effort. I'll be anxious to get my hands on the cutting again and see how it does. I did make some crossed with it back at that time. I crossed it with a Legends Ultimate Indica male and came up with a pretty nice copy of it, and a cross with an Apollo 11 male made some interesting samples. I'm going to make some S1s as soon as I get it back and see how that works out. Thanks for the info!!
 

MImedpatient

Well-known member
Not true about clones losing potency and changing over time. Your clones should be the same for 30-40 generations at least. Sports (variegated types) are rare in clones. Running and breeding seeds you will lose potency in about 4 generations if you do not select the best quality m&f for breeding, as Cannabis will use gene switching to adapt to the local climate and habitat that they are grown in, and rapidly. For that reason I do huge F1 runs and freeze the seeds, and rather than doing F2, F2, F4 runs. So later I just replant the F1s. I also run clones and have kept some for 10 or more generations. They are exactly the same as they were when I started with them. You can run down clones and they can become weak or spindly, but they can be revived to more enhanced vigor with rooting techniques. I believe what you are seeing in loss of clone quality is more likely due to your growing environment and/or methods and technique, or difference from when it was grown way back when.

Breeding will always introduce variables, and you are likely not going to get the same as what you have, but that depends on the stability of the original strain. If it is an indica-sativa cross, you are likely to get widely variable results. If it was a landrace strain the results will likely be less variable. You can use chemicals to force a male from a clone, and cross that with your fem cut for S1 seeds. You will also get fem seeds from doing that, but selfing as you call it will be a far better chance to get what you are looking for than cross breeding. Depending on how stable the strain is, the S1 results may or may not be similar, and they may or many not be stable or consistent. I tend to only breed IBL from landraces, so they are already stable and consistent. Or as in the case of Lebanese, they continue to produce the same two phenos that the landraces have. The more variable the genetics in the cut that you are trying to reproduce, the more variable the results are going to be however you breed them. Any added cross genetics will just make your results more variable and the chance of getting what you are after are greatly reduced. The more variety in the genes, the more plants that you will have to grow to find the few that you are after. My experience growing for 45 years now anyway.
I am of the opinion that people lose clones because they don't keep it clean, and diseases get introduced over time. Some of the work being done in california w/ tissue culture and disease treating the elder lines brought in is awesome. but, I am not down to pay 10k for them to clean my plant. I currently don't think I have a plant that sick, or that valuable to me. I used to be terrible at rooting cuts. took me almost 6 years to figure out how to get 100% success each time. suppsedly Kevin Jodrey took in one of his oldest cuttings, and when it come back it was like the plant he grew 30 years ago according to him, full of vigor.
 

59lespaul

Member
I think many who keep clones/mothers long term keep the roots in good shape, use organic living soil, and use the sun to keep the plants vigorous.
One can also start new cuts of the original, and give them plenty of sun, lots of good soil, and strong light when not in the sun.

I think the sun is vital to keeping indoor plants vigorous, and encouraging a strong immune system for long term health. We have a 2004 AK47 x NL5 clone thats lost nothing. We have a 2010 Mr Nice SSH mother thats lost nothing. We give our plants as much sun as possible from April- August. Even a couple hours a day benefits them. But you have to first bring them out into the shade, and then short duration in direct light, or youll fry them. We also use UVA/B lights inside. 4-8 hours a day. Mothers-Seedlings-Flowering
 

axiom

Active member
I have a question some of you may be able to answer. There has been a strain that is a local legend in my area since around 1978. It was hands down the best smoke I've ever had. Very hashy taste and you have to use caution when smoking it. I have many stories of people passing out after a couple of hits from it. I was able to acquire it back around 2001, and after I had it a few years, it seemed to lose its taste and potency. So I let it go, hoping to some day acquire another cutting of it. Well, that finally has happened, but I'm finding that the original owners of the strain must have had the same luck that I had. It just doesn't taste the same, or have the kick it had.

My question is, would the genetics still be there if I were to try breeding this plant to try to reproduce it? I'm not sure what I would use for a male, but I feel my best bet would be to start with a Mr. Nice product. I've grown almost everything Shantibaba had back around 2001 - 2005, and my first thought would be to try Shit, since that was really my favorite strain, and is very old school. Any help anyone might have with this would be greatly appreciated.
Natural sunlight occasionally for the mother plants is like a vitamin or booster shot for an indoor plant.
Try that to re invigorate the cutting before flowering.
Breeding it to skunk would be fine but if you know the actual parents lineage that would help you choose a better mate.
Another comment was made about it not being the same plant and this is something to consider.
Mother plants are expensive and time consuming to keep so sometimes when a grower decides to let a good plant go he makes seeds, so one day maybe he can grow her again. 🤔
All things considered
I hope it turns out good for you.
✌
 

Dawn

Member
I suggest crossing your clone to Shit or even Black Widow as these are very stable IBLs with little to no variance and are quite vigorous. Then back cross it to your clone for many generations continuing to pick out the most potent from each generation until you get what you're looking for.
 

MImedpatient

Well-known member
Does no one remember mercury vapor lights ?
Peeps keep saying uv rays.....umm, duh ?
Been using mv lights since maybe 78-80 or so.
so, I honestly think I am the only person under 40 who has used those. I was gifted someoens old grow lights when I started 4 250w MV fixtures. If I still had them I would tottaly toss them up to see how modern weed does under them!
 

quinxstar

Well-known member
I have a question some of you may be able to answer. There has been a strain that is a local legend in my area since around 1978. It was hands down the best smoke I've ever had. Very hashy taste and you have to use caution when smoking it. I have many stories of people passing out after a couple of hits from it. I was able to acquire it back around 2001, and after I had it a few years, it seemed to lose its taste and potency. So I let it go, hoping to some day acquire another cutting of it. Well, that finally has happened, but I'm finding that the original owners of the strain must have had the same luck that I had. It just doesn't taste the same, or have the kick it had.

My question is, would the genetics still be there if I were to try breeding this plant to try to reproduce it? I'm not sure what I would use for a male, but I feel my best bet would be to start with a Mr. Nice product. I've grown almost everything Shantibaba had back around 2001 - 2005, and my first thought would be to try Shit, since that was really my favorite strain, and is very old school. Any help anyone might have with this would be greatly appreciated.
it's a great project to do that

choose a strain who are the more similar to your clone in taste in time of bloom
after if the result of the first cross is good you have too choose some males and do it again on your clone
but it's not easy

i had only do simple cross in my life for the moment some f1 in the fridge
but i will do like that

ps : maybe since 2017 you have do somethings :)
 
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sensient

Well-known member
Hey there, sounds interesting
Firstly "Not true about clones losing potency and changing over time. Your clones should be the same for 30-40 generations at least"
Many factors come into play.....of course clones can loose potency and change over time .....anything can go wrong, especially keeping clones long term, pests, diseases, different environmental factors, genetic drift...ECT..
Take for instance the Pacific G-13 cut...back when we got it into Australia it had already lost a lot of vigor, it needed 2 months of vegging just to get the plant to a decent size to flower out, and getting it to yield decently, which would actually be considered a poor yield anyway took work
This is the case with many of the old clones.
The same clone held by different people can vary greatly in quality, depending on how the clone has been maintained.
As I mentioned many factors come into play, so yes it is quite possible that it is the same clone line and had different factors affect potency, vigor ECT.
Performing an S1 reversal is definitely one way to go, but still you may not find what you are looking for in the S1.
Outcrossing to restore vigour ECT is an option.
Although the clone may have declined, it still contains the original genetics.
You could back cross the line, or outcross then stabilise the line, breeding through to F-4, 5.
Personally if you were to perform either or...I would choose a stable Inbreed line to work it with.
It will make your work a lot easier, and results will be more predictable.
Crossing the clone and performing an F2, then searching through the F2 you may find your desired traits and you can work from there locking down those traits and end up with something very similar to what you remember.
I always get nostalgic when I smoke something that reminds me of an old strain from my younger days
I would love to be able to have some of those old lines, but alas...most of that stuff is long gone .
That's awesome that you have been able to find the same clone line again, if in fact it is..
Wishing you all the best in finding what you are looking for. ..happy growing friend
Sensient
 

MImedpatient

Well-known member
Hey there, sounds interesting
Firstly "Not true about clones losing potency and changing over time. Your clones should be the same for 30-40 generations at least"
Many factors come into play.....of course clones can loose potency and change over time .....anything can go wrong, especially keeping clones long term, pests, diseases, different environmental factors, genetic drift...ECT..
Take for instance the Pacific G-13 cut...back when we got it into Australia it had already lost a lot of vigor, it needed 2 months of vegging just to get the plant to a decent size to flower out, and getting it to yield decently, which would actually be considered a poor yield anyway took work
This is the case with many of the old clones.
The same clone held by different people can vary greatly in quality, depending on how the clone has been maintained.
As I mentioned many factors come into play, so yes it is quite possible that it is the same clone line and had different factors affect potency, vigor ECT.
Performing an S1 reversal is definitely one way to go, but still you may not find what you are looking for in the S1.
Outcrossing to restore vigour ECT is an option.
Although the clone may have declined, it still contains the original genetics.
You could back cross the line, or outcross then stabilise the line, breeding through to F-4, 5.
Personally if you were to perform either or...I would choose a stable Inbreed line to work it with.
It will make your work a lot easier, and results will be more predictable.
Crossing the clone and performing an F2, then searching through the F2 you may find your desired traits and you can work from there locking down those traits and end up with something very similar to what you remember.
I always get nostalgic when I smoke something that reminds me of an old strain from my younger days
I would love to be able to have some of those old lines, but alas...most of that stuff is long gone .
That's awesome that you have been able to find the same clone line again, if in fact it is..
Wishing you all the best in finding what you are looking for. ..happy growing friend
Sensient
thhe pacific g13, quite a storied plant. I think only one breeder out of the USA labels his g13 as pacific, and he has multiple heritage g13s, the pacific, the 88g13hp, and something he calls Neville's cut. IMO its on e of the best breeding partners to exist in the cananbis gene pool
 
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