After Nevil's pasing, Sam weighs in

piffcat

Member
Where did you read that about the pati morada.
The old timers haze thread on ic m a g. Person had some direct knowledge from smugglers from colombia in 70s. They were explaining that punto rojo was nomenclature term encompassing many lndraces and that skunkman couldn't have known correct variety since h was getting 3rd hand info . Guy knew alot try and find post
 

piffcat

Member
Screenshot_20210401-194923_Chrome.jpgScreenshot_20210401-194944_Chrome.jpgScreenshot_20210401-194958_Chrome.jpgp


Some of the most detailed colombian info I've ever read. I especially like the relationship between cauca and anthocyanins. Further from cauca equals less purple more lemon.
Cauca is ince again relevant as colombia embraces medical marijuana fincas. Unfortunately I can't read Spanish most articles I find aren't english
 

BuzzardsBay

Active member
This is a great thread. Sometimes it makes my head spin though. I grew up in Boston and smoked a lot in the seventies. I remember the taste am effects of ’Old School weed’ mostly I got the bottom of the bag, but every once in awhile I got the good stuff. One puff and I could recognize it. I even remember the ‘trails’ effect. Like an early motion picture.
I miss it. Hopefully we will get it ironed out this year so we can get the highest quality CG there is, so I can grow it In my garden. People in this thread seem to be the breeders/growers hot on the trail. I’ve decided I need to smell it as it dries. One puff all it would take.
The proof is In the seed.
 

High-mish

Active member
They used to make s*** chocolate everywhere in the world but it was only after certain countries (f.i. Belgium) used to conquer certain parts of the world, started getting all the good stuff back to their turf and made some excellent products with it.. that suddenly cacao and chocolate became a thing.

Has any of you ever tasted pure cacao? It tastes bitter and only after it gets refined and worked with, it becomes a delicacy.
Imho... Same logic can be applied to this thread.
 
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Big Sur

Well-known member
It goes farther than that though. Europe still has a monopoly on global cocoa trade. It goes all the way back to Hernán Cortés and the conquistadors of Spain. Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Spain, etc. get the best cocoa. The US gets the dregs. So we have crappy chocolate here by comparison, the likes of Hershey. But in contrast we have the best tobacco here in the states. Smoking cigarettes from other places? They do not compare. Similar to chocolate though, cigarettes are a blend and concoction of a long list of various tobacco strains, vintages, growing methods, harvesting, processes and ingredients. Not unlike weed. The weed market is rather immature now. Many want shatter and high THC hash with the most potent THC blast that they can get. That to me is boring. I want long, slow and cool cured top quality heirloom high terpene and variable cannabinoid weed that is then cold sifted into fine golden hash powder. Now that is the essence of weed for me. And about all I smoke now. I still like scissor (or hand rubbed) hash though. Even low % THC weed can become top grade hash. Like Lebanese.
 

piffcat

Member
It goes farther than that though. Europe still has a monopoly on global cocoa trade. It goes all the way back to Hernán Cortés and the conquistadors of Spain. Belgium, Switzerland, Germany, Spain, etc. get the best cocoa. The US gets the dregs. So we have crappy chocolate here by comparison, the likes of Hershey. But in contrast we have the best tobacco here in the states. Smoking cigarettes from other places? They do not compare. Similar to chocolate though, cigarettes are a blend and concoction of a long list of various tobacco strains, vintages, growing methods, harvesting, processes and ingredients. Not unlike weed. The weed market is rather immature now. Many want shatter and high THC hash with the most potent THC blast that they can get. That to me is boring. I want long, slow and cool cured top quality heirloom high terpene and variable cannabinoid weed that is then cold sifted into fine golden hash powder. Now that is the essence of weed for me. And about all I smoke now. I still like scissor (or hand rubbed) hash though. Even low % THC weed can become top grade hash. Like Lebanese.

So true! I think when markets immature the ppl w most disposable income dont know what is best and why. So you see things like 1000 dollar cannagars with purple green indica mix.
But the true best of any product produced is by the most experienced and obsessive members of a community. It takes a while until the true best rises to top in market once every choice is represented on open market. And what's being ignored now is effect for one. Its not even considered. Rarity and usefulness ala purple mexican strains or mango colombians. The sativas will rise. I think you could even see botanical gardens of landraces.
 

PlantManBee

Well-known member
About ten years ago I was chatting with a Canadian "breeder" and he just couldn't understand when I wanted weed that I could chain smoke joints of all day like some of the Mexican we used to get. We'd often go through a half or a lid a day, but it was extremely pleasant while not incapacitating at all.

Some of it was fantastic weed, but not particularly potent weed. Laughing and smiling all day long while being active and high beats laying on the couch confused and too stoned to function. Sure there are lots of things in between those experiences, but at least during the height of prohibition most were only aiming at shear potency.
 

Big Sur

Well-known member
The sativas will rise. I think you could even see botanical gardens of landraces.
Back in 1977 I was in my friend's van driving down his half mile muddy driveway to get to his house in the middle of a 240 acre tomato field. We were stoned as usual, and I was commenting to him "Imagine if these tomatoes were all Cannabis plants!" He looked at me like I just landed from Mars. It was beyond his imagination. Anyway, that has happened there now. Well, its possible, but most marijuana grows there are in greenhouses or behind fences, and not in open fields. But with hemp that is now happening on that kind of scale. Though that particular field is now a condoplex, a huge retail auto sales lot and a giant shopping mall.
 

Big Sur

Well-known member
About ten years ago I was chatting with a Canadian "breeder" and he just couldn't understand when I wanted weed that I could chain smoke joints of all day like some of the Mexican we used to get. We'd often go through a half or a lid a day, but it was extremely pleasant while not incapacitating at all.
Yeah, the guy and I were smoking some Mexican or Colombian weed in Gilroy that day back in 1977. We would smoke a joint about one every 20 minutes to maintain the high. Rolling joints was a passtime, sorting seeds and stems from the smoke and twisting up joints in rolling papers. Good weed then was about 5% THC. Average low to mid grade brick was maybe 2-3%. Hash was upward of 15%. Sinsemilla was 8-10% and we rolled pinners of that stuff.
 

piffcat

Member
Back in 1977 I was in my friend's van driving down his half mile muddy driveway to get to his house in the middle of a 240 acre tomato field. We were stoned as usual, and I was commenting to him "Imagine if these tomatoes were all Cannabis plants!" He looked at me like I just landed from Mars. It was beyond his imagination. Anyway, that has happened there now. Well, its possible, but most marijuana grows there are in greenhouses or behind fences, and not in open fields. But with hemp that is now happening on that kind of scale. Though that particular field is now a condoplex, a huge retail auto sales lot and a giant shopping mall.
I'm thinking like large hothouse greenhouses lighting humidity cycle all modified for certain classes. A south east Asia hothouse highland colombian and a jungle colombian. Mexican south african on and on.
The most beautiful plants are never seen by 99 percent of smokers. I kno the lighting company sun on demand has created a plasma that nearly 100% match of sunlight. They can alter it by longitude and latitude as well as soil reproduction even the specific food soil web. The author of teaming with microbes whose name escapes me is involved.
Think like a vineyard but landraces. I believe the wine industry is a great parallel. The most expensive wines are not the highest in alcohol content or able to be grown anywhere it's all about the terroir.
The French provenance of champagne Bordeaux burgundy are highly detailed and command high market value. Once the smoke clears on the high mycerene golfball thc plants these same factors will come into play. For example santa Marta could be the cannabis equivalent of champagne. You can't just grow and produce sparkling white anywhere it has to be produced in champagne region of France to gain the title. Santa marta colombian gold is directly linked the terroir in that area in colombia.
Also people who smoked in 70s have a strong nostalgia for these landraces. Pairing that with disposable income and the market will respond.

So I guess its 2 ideas botanical hot houses could be put anywhere and would be focused on aesthetic. Whereas landraces grown in home enviorment would focus on provenance and production
 

Big Sur

Well-known member
Well, having had a vineyard myself in Southern Oregon (Pinot Noir), I cannot say that there is any real large scale parallel to growing Cannabis. Grapes are perennial and take a lot more abuse than Cannabis. With grapes you have to reduce the vigor or you get crappy results. So I dry farmed mine for more intense flavors. With grapes you have to select a cultivar or cultivars that match the climate that you have. Otherwise you will get poor results. And of course I did not need any license, permits or anything to plant a vineyard. Before growing any Cannabis in Oregon, you need licenses, permits, you have to be in the right county and zoned for growing marijuana, and there are tons of requirements and restrictions for size of farms, growing, testing, surveillance, transport, selling, etc. etc. etc. Even with the 4 plant grow for anyone here, you are limited by a ton of laws. When growing grapes? Plant as many as you want wherever you want, and sell to whomever you can find to buy them. Me, I found a grape buyer (two actually) before I selected and planted a single grape vine. Which is what I recommend to any would be commercial Cannabis grower. Find a buyer and plant stains that they want. Otherwise you may not be able to sell it. They of course also have to be licensed, pay in cash, etc. etc. The flip side is that Cannabis will adapt rapidly to any climate that you have, in as little as 4 seasons (growing and breeding them locally every year). In this climate it is best to grow indoors or in a greenhouse. Outdoors you are pressing your luck. For that reason the hemp grows in Oregon have already peaked and are 1/3 of what they were 2 years ago. Buyers are few, and the weather here can be brutal for outdoor grows. Early frost, hail and heavy rain in summer and early fall can devastate outdoor Cannabis crops. And in that sense, anyone can grow Cannabis indoors and adapt the environment to the best climate for that strain. Since the weather here is so varied, that is the best route really. I get by here with small grows in greenhouses, indoors under lights and outdoors. But I have the land and resources to do it. I could go commercial here, but I would have to become a manager and have a crew. I do not want to do that. The vineyard was one acre and I was a one man show, producing 2 tons of grapes a year. To produce 2 tons of Cannabis a year I would need an army of people. Not sure I could even do that with the canopy area grow license limits here. And the county that my vineyard is in does not allow for commercial marijuana. I could grow hemp there I suppose. Easier to get that license. But I'd still have to find a buyer, likely in Colorado. And then buy seed or plugs. Interstate transport of hemp creates other problems here. Idaho does not allow any hemp to be transported through their state.

As for nostalgia, that is waning. The real market here is for high THC strains that have some added twist one way or another, and some terps or other. Weed here is all FAD now. The latest and greatest, and then move on to something else. Its a young person's market, not an old fart one with the likes of myself. Yeah, they want to try it here and there, but they really want kick-ass weed. Shatter sells well here. That is what, 75% THC? Also blunts sell well. People in the weed shops are always rolling pre-rolls here to sell as one offs. The old landrace strains are upward of 6% THC really. That was seeded weed, so that cuts down the THC by weight of the seeds. But you are still only going to get maybe 10% THC at the top end with landraces. People want more like 20% these days. Sure there are light weights out there that want less. But you have to go with market demand. You cannot just say I have this old bag weed and expect it to sell. Most kids these days do not even know what bag weed means any more. Or even weed. They want to vape candy flavored oil cartridges.
 

piffcat

Member
Well, having had a vineyard myself in Southern Oregon (Pinot Noir), I cannot say that there is any real large scale parallel to growing Cannabis. Grapes are perennial and take a lot more abuse than Cannabis. With grapes you have to reduce the vigor or you get crappy results. So I dry farmed mine for more intense flavors. With grapes you have to select a cultivar or cultivars that match the climate that you have. Otherwise you will get poor results. And of course I did not need any license, permits or anything to plant a vineyard. Before growing any Cannabis in Oregon, you need licenses, permits, you have to be in the right county and zoned for growing marijuana, and there are tons of requirements and restrictions for size of farms, growing, testing, surveillance, transport, selling, etc. etc. etc. Even with the 4 plant grow for anyone here, you are limited by a ton of laws. When growing grapes? Plant as many as you want wherever you want, and sell to whomever you can find to buy them. Me, I found a grape buyer (two actually) before I selected and planted a single grape vine. Which is what I recommend to any would be commercial Cannabis grower. Find a buyer and plant stains that they want. Otherwise you may not be able to sell it. They of course also have to be licensed, pay in cash, etc. etc. The flip side is that Cannabis will adapt rapidly to any climate that you have, in as little as 4 seasons (growing and breeding them locally every year). In this climate it is best to grow indoors or in a greenhouse. Outdoors you are pressing your luck. For that reason the hemp grows in Oregon have already peaked and are 1/3 of what they were 2 years ago. Buyers are few, and the weather here can be brutal for outdoor grows. Early frost, hail and heavy rain in summer and early fall can devastate outdoor Cannabis crops. And in that sense, anyone can grow Cannabis indoors and adapt the environment to the best climate for that strain. Since the weather here is so varied, that is the best route really. I get by here with small grows in greenhouses, indoors under lights and outdoors. But I have the land and resources to do it. I could go commercial here, but I would have to become a manager and have a crew. I do not want to do that. The vineyard was one acre and I was a one man show, producing 2 tons of grapes a year. To produce 2 tons of Cannabis a year I would need an army of people. Not sure I could even do that with the canopy area grow license limits here. And the county that my vineyard is in does not allow for commercial marijuana. I could grow hemp there I suppose. Easier to get that license. But I'd still have to find a buyer, likely in Colorado. And then buy seed or plugs. Interstate transport of hemp creates other problems here. Idaho does not allow any hemp to be transported through their state.

As for nostalgia, that is waning. The real market here is for high THC strains that have some added twist one way or another, and some terps or other. Weed here is all FAD now. The latest and greatest, and then move on to something else. Its a young person's market, not an old fart one with the likes of myself. Yeah, they want to try it here and there, but they really want kick-ass weed. Shatter sells well here. That is what, 75% THC? Also blunts sell well. People in the weed shops are always rolling pre-rolls here to sell as one offs. The old landrace strains are upward of 6% THC really. That was seeded weed, so that cuts down the THC by weight of the seeds. But you are still only going to get maybe 10% THC at the top end with landraces. People want more like 20% these days. Sure there are light weights out there that want less. But you have to go with market demand. You cannot just say I have this old bag weed and expect it to sell. Most kids these days do not even know what bag weed means any more. Or even weed. They want to vape candy flavored oil cartridges.
That's very smart idea with finding specialty customers and catering to them. There are 2 huge points when it comes to this market and future for the little guy. The first being federal legality. Having cannabis currently class 1 at federal level is the only thing holding back the floodgates of corporate scums. Almost all state legislation requires the cannabis production and sale to be contained in state. This is huge for the grey/black market. Doesn't allow walmart etc from producing at reduced over head by outsourcing and pricing the margins out of reality for small guy. Federal class 1 essentially turns each state into it's own cannabis country. And with that there will always be states very restricted and illegal which means cannabis is worth significantly more in these states and any quantity you can grow you can sell.
Second point is a mature market to me revolves around treating cannabis as any other business funding and qualifications wise. The reason cannabis was so profitable in early 2000s was mostly due to illegal status. As more and more people grew bud medically and the laws were relaxed many people now felt the risk was worth it to grow their own. For ex I live in ct which right on border of ri. Ri allows patient cultivation ct does not. In 2010 before the influx of newbies pounds went for around 3I. The further you drove on 95 s towards new haven the more the bud was worth! After the influx #s are now down to 2 grand. There are still many states in that 3k category .
 

BuzzardsBay

Active member
Well, having had a vineyard myself in Southern Oregon (Pinot Noir), I cannot say that there is any real large scale parallel to growing Cannabis. Grapes are perennial and take a lot more abuse than Cannabis. With grapes you have to reduce the vigor or you get crappy results. So I dry farmed mine for more intense flavors. With grapes you have to select a cultivar or cultivars that match the climate that you have. Otherwise you will get poor results. And of course I did not need any license, permits or anything to plant a vineyard. Before growing any Cannabis in Oregon, you need licenses, permits, you have to be in the right county and zoned for growing marijuana, and there are tons of requirements and restrictions for size of farms, growing, testing, surveillance, transport, selling, etc. etc. etc. Even with the 4 plant grow for anyone here, you are limited by a ton of laws. When growing grapes? Plant as many as you want wherever you want, and sell to whomever you can find to buy them. Me, I found a grape buyer (two actually) before I selected and planted a single grape vine. Which is what I recommend to any would be commercial Cannabis grower. Find a buyer and plant stains that they want. Otherwise you may not be able to sell it. They of course also have to be licensed, pay in cash, etc. etc. The flip side is that Cannabis will adapt rapidly to any climate that you have, in as little as 4 seasons (growing and breeding them locally every year). In this climate it is best to grow indoors or in a greenhouse. Outdoors you are pressing your luck. For that reason the hemp grows in Oregon have already peaked and are 1/3 of what they were 2 years ago. Buyers are few, and the weather here can be brutal for outdoor grows. Early frost, hail and heavy rain in summer and early fall can devastate outdoor Cannabis crops. And in that sense, anyone can grow Cannabis indoors and adapt the environment to the best climate for that strain. Since the weather here is so varied, that is the best route really. I get by here with small grows in greenhouses, indoors under lights and outdoors. But I have the land and resources to do it. I could go commercial here, but I would have to become a manager and have a crew. I do not want to do that. The vineyard was one acre and I was a one man show, producing 2 tons of grapes a year. To produce 2 tons of Cannabis a year I would need an army of people. Not sure I could even do that with the canopy area grow license limits here. And the county that my vineyard is in does not allow for commercial marijuana. I could grow hemp there I suppose. Easier to get that license. But I'd still have to find a buyer, likely in Colorado. And then buy seed or plugs. Interstate transport of hemp creates other problems here. Idaho does not allow any hemp to be transported through their state.

As for nostalgia, that is waning. The real market here is for high THC strains that have some added twist one way or another, and some terps or other. Weed here is all FAD now. The latest and greatest, and then move on to something else. Its a young person's market, not an old fart one with the likes of myself. Yeah, they want to try it here and there, but they really want kick-ass weed. Shatter sells well here. That is what, 75% THC? Also blunts sell well. People in the weed shops are always rolling pre-rolls here to sell as one offs. The old landrace strains are upward of 6% THC really. That was seeded weed, so that cuts down the THC by weight of the seeds. But you are still only going to get maybe 10% THC at the top end with landraces. People want more like 20% these days. Sure there are light weights out there that want less. But you have to go with market demand. You cannot just say I have this old bag weed and expect it to sell. Most kids these days do not even know what bag weed means any more. Or even weed. They want to vape candy flavored oil cartridges.
Agreed. Hey Big Sur, is it possible that these are the halcyon days for the seed collector?
I’m wondering is ten years from now Monsanto will create there own strain like they did with the determinant tomato. Something super fast, super hardy, and easy to extract chemicals from.
So many strains gone...
 

Big Sur

Well-known member
Agreed. Hey Big Sur, is it possible that these are the halcyon days for the seed collector?
I’m wondering is ten years from now Monsanto will create there own strain like they did with the determinant tomato. Something super fast, super hardy, and easy to extract chemicals from.
So many strains gone...
I think that time is already here in commercial growing. As in there are already many custom proprietary strains being developed and grown in many massive indoor grow complexes in many states. Also there is the company in New Mexico that has fully developed geneticly altered GMO weed to produce whatever flavor and cannabinoid index that they want in strains that are disease and bug resistant. And there are the extractors here that are buying up the dregs for dirt and just extracting oil, and then adding whatever flavors and cannbinoids that they want for vaping cartridges, shatter and oils. Also there are the vats of cannabinoids being brewed in Canada now using the UC Berkeley methods for yeast fermented cannabis products. Those will be used in pharmaceuticals, beverages, and vape cartridges. And maybe even sprayed on weed to fortify it, like the tobacco companies do with cigarettes. That way they will have all the marketing bases covered.

Vape the Grape Juice Bomb! Suck down the Canna-beer! Take a CBN Night Night pill to get to sleep. And smoke that infused Ganja Supreme blend of Cannabliss ready-rolled in the 4 pack. All heavilly taxed and ready for you, the consumer, to enjoy.
 

Big Sur

Well-known member
Hello, dear friends of the fully usable plant.

...snipped....

And then there is this published (quote):
“... The deal with Wernard was that Nevil could sell the seeds anywhere outside of Holland, while Wernard wanted to concentrate on the Dutch market. ... "

Any questions?
I never bought a High Times rag. I did occasionally pick up a copy from a magazine rack and look at the last page at regional prices, with which they completely corrupted and destroyed our local NorCal market with. The rest was trash. Well, some of the bud porn was interesting. But like pussy porn, you cannot roll with it.

You would be better served to read several series of Underground Comix from the era, like Dr Atomic, The Fabulous Furry Freak Bros, or Mr Natural. Also books like Weed by Jerry Kamstra, anything by Mary Jane Superweed, or The Bandit of Kabul by Jerry Beisler. The books ring true to what I saw back in the day. As does the Fab Freak Bros. I worked and hung out in Berkeley, Santa Cruz, the Monterey Peninsula, Salinas, Carmel Valley, and along the South Coast in the 1970s. And alot of places between. I lived in Central Coastal CA from '66 to '86. I was stoned and partied from 1972 through 1986. I can tell you about places and things and events and bands and weed and babes, and bikers, and the VietNam war, and the hippie scene along Highway 1 from SF to LA, and... But! Many would disagree with my observations and memory. There are many "expert historians" out there now that were not there then, that have analysed the era in every detail, see? They know better than I do. Its as if I was not even there! Poof! I am erased from history in this era of cancel culture. Like all the stuff that never made it into High Times Mag. You know, all the real stuff that actually happened.
 
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