Fem seeds and there impact on the future of the species known as cannabis.

  • Thread starter Thread starter hempy
  • Start date Start date
do you guys know about Mullers Rachet theory,,,?

il answer you question after this hempy,,sorry to take so long,,





ps,,,,nev,,,,,check-out the ratchet,,,i think it will explain everything + i think you will enjoy it,,,you gota see it bro,:),,defo worth a read:)
 
thats 1 of my main points,,,all lines will evolve males,,, "if you let them",,,,

imo,,males are just failed atemps at female production
 
This is Rad!!!

If the Y has a different structure, is it possible that certain types of genetic information could only be found and carried in/on that structure? Sorry if this is elementary for you smart dudes I'm a genetidiot.

englishrick -thats 1 of my main points,,,all lines will evolve males,,, "if you let them",,,,

imo,,males are just failed atemps at female production

Cool theory englishrick, dont let your wife/girl know you feel that way though.
 
nam/el,,,:),

BANG!!!!,,,,the auto problem!!,,,,BIG BIG PROBLEM!!!!!!

we should kill this auto thing beffore it stops us all cloning,,,wow,,talk about poloution!!,,,autofication will make skunkification look like a single-cell




ps,,,id never introduce my genes into the wild!!,,,,my stuff is locked-up like a biohazzard,,,,im creating a new indoor-only population,,,,"livin in a box",,,designed for my niche and wider,,,,i take the best in the world and introduce it to my enviroment,,,,nothin comes out alive!!
 
I'm still waiting for an answer from a proponent of Fem seeds ( or anyone ) what they think natures purpose is with regard to the Y chromosome. Or, if you think it's irrelevant, what is your reasoning.
We are just discussing idea's here, I don't insist that anyone agrees with me.
N.

Well, if i tell you that an intersex female has an Y-chromosome like XXY.It's not that a XX female produce pollen when you spray STS on them.A true female with XX will never produce pollen.A female plant must react only on the STS treatment to produce pollen, but must not be sensitive to other stress factors like light leaks.That's the problem with most seed companies nowadays who're dealing with fem seeds.They'e only for the big $$$$$/€€€€€.

Namaste :)
 
Y

I already gave you a clue. The reason cannabis is considered a highly evolved plant is because it has two sexes, one with a Y chromosome. In fact, all highly evolved life on this plant has two sexes. Lesser plants are self pollinators!
Could it be that having two sexes speeds up the rate of evolution?

I like the idea of clones in seed form, so that we can more efficiently preserve what we have got, but like the clone itself, It's an evolutionary dead end until we breed it to something.

To me, the question left hanging in the air is, if having two sexes speeds up the rate of evolution, what role does the Y chromosome play?
N.
 
rick the only use i see in reversal is in using it for males to see what it will bring to the union that's it as a tool as hybrids will recombine in many vereations.

This Selfing craze and fem seed craze is complete bull shit.

HOw can you not also see the need to look further into the female genetics also hempy ,,,
so youd just research within one parents genetics and not the other .. huh???

and if you want to do a proper test with plants ,, try making your numbers a bit larger , it tells a better story ...

by the way ,, nice look to those plants ,,, they look kinda copper colour ,, did you have to prune the shade leaf>>?
 
HOw can you not also see the need to look further into the female genetics also hempy ,,,
Hi Wally,
Thats a strange way of formulating your question, are you attempting to say the need to feminize female plants will give you a better understanding of what they have to offer through the S1 product? IF this is your position, it would ultimately seem the public is being used by these feminized seed producers as guinea pigs to test out what their elite clones hold.

And I can guarantee you most would not be happy to learn they're being used in such a fashion, and often times paying extra money for doing so. Because most are not buying these seeds to do research, but rather to obtain "elite" lines and by pass the hard work of selection, in lue of maximizing their profits through the lense of the sensimilla product. Not to do research for these so called "breeders", at an extra-ordinary price at that.


so youd just research within one parents genetics and not the other .. huh???
With this question, it would indeed seem that you're proposing the real purpose of feminized seed is to do research, rather than offer an "elite" product, which has been for sometime the position many have taken in justifying the feminized seed trend. So this is now an extraordinary jump in defense of the feminized industry, one which ultimately fails to hold up to reason for the above specified reasons. People are not buying these feminized seeds to do research, that is anything but the case in fact.

So if you're indeed proposing the feminized seed industry is now a tool to look further into what these select females have to offer via research, it would seem you're suggesting the feminized products on the market are nothing more than a mass experiment. One which the public is unaware of, and has been marketed to them under false pretences. At an otherwise expensive experiment at that.

I would say, like others previously, the feminized seed trend is meant to capitalize on the publics ignorance and take them to the bank. Filling seed producers and seed sellers pockets, not to do research or offer an elite product. Because as hempy's experiment has previously demonstrated, the S1 plants are a far cry from the original elite mothers, or even F2s made by natural means. The feminized S1's are in fact inferior to the original naturally bred F1s.

and if you want to do a proper test with plants ,, try making your numbers a bit larger , it tells a better story ...
With the price most companies are charging for their feminized seed, with this reasoning above one would expect the seed numbers from the product the public buys to be greater than usual. However most are still filling orders with the usual 10-15 seeds per order. If Hempys 18 seeds were not enough to tell the proper story, though more than what these feminized seed producers offer, what exactly is your point wally? That most of these companies should be offering more seed per feminized purchase? Because as it stands, hempy used a greater number of seed than most would normally acquire and was still able to show the detriments of the S1 process. So what will the public find, with an even smaller population to work from?

A whole lot of mediocrity!
 
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what role does the Y chromosome play?

To avoid irreversible mutations perhaps, but the y chromosome is not fully understood in the Cannabis gene pole!!! Intersex females have also an Y chromosome like i said before.

Namaste :)
 
In fact, all highly evolved life on this plant has two sexes. Lesser plants are self pollinators!
Could it be that having two sexes speeds up the rate of evolution?
N.

I'd say having two sexes is a sign of a fairly rudimentary level of evolution. Some of the older cultures that migrated here from the Orion belt with Tom Cruise and L.Ron Hubbard had 6 or more....:D

That was just a joke, but a fella having two girlfriends?

That WOULD would confirm your postulate.
 
Thank you for responding Namaskar. No one really understands the Y chromosome in any gene pool. From here on in, it's all conjecture, but we should ponder these things before we throw the baby out with the bath water.
But I like your answer:-
To avoid irreversible mutations perhaps
(are you psychic?)
I believe that the Y chromosome is the wild card in the pack, It gives a species the ability to throw back to successful ancestors. In a monoecious species you are going to get an even blend from both parents which leads to uniformity and therefore stability, but very slow progress.
With dioecious species there is an ability to throw back to a genetically superior ancestor or family. This ability seems disproportionate to the percentage of that ancestor's genetics in the pedigree. White people having black babies and visa versa.
These are just my idea's and no doubt some one will rubbish them or pinch them, but you heard it here first.
N.
 
(are you psychic?)

Sometimes i'm psychic when i smoked to much of Lambsbread, but that's not always the case.:D

In a monoecious species you are going to get an even blend from both parents which leads to uniformity and therefore stability, but very slow progress.

Monoecious has both sexes, but that is not the case when you start breeding with fem species of Cannabis.

With dioecious species there is an ability to throw back to a genetically superior ancestor or family. This ability seems disproportionate to the percentage of that ancestor's genetics in the pedigree. White people having black babies and visa versa.

Genetic material lays on the X chromosome and not the Y chromosome.Black parents with a white baby with blond hair has probably to do with the expressing of certain genes me as example.Both of my parents are having blue eyes and straight hair.I've got light green eyes with curly hair.

Namaste :)
 
June 19, 2003
Finished Y-Chromosome Sequence Reveals a Genomic "Crystal Palace"

A team of 40 researchers has finished sequencing the Y chromosome, the male sex chromosome once belittled as “the Rodney Dangerfield of the human genome” because researchers believed it contained no genes of interest.

The Y may gain a measure of respect now that researchers have discovered that it is actually a genomic “crystal palace,” containing genes that impact male fertility, vast stretches of mirror-image DNA, and an assortment of functional and vestigial genes.


“I have been told for years that the Y chromosome was full of junky repeats, a genetic wasteland.”
David C. Page

Most significantly, the new studies have unearthed a startling mechanism that the Y chromosome uses to maintain its functionality. It appears that the Y protects its genetic integrity by swapping multiple copies of the same gene within its own structure.

“I have been told for years that the Y chromosome was full of junky repeats, a genetic wasteland,” said senior author David C. Page , a Howard Hughes Medical Institute investigator at MIT's Whitehead Institute for Biomedical Research. “People would ask why we would consider wasting our time mapping and sequencing it. But, in fact, what we see is that it's a crystal palace.”

The researchers published their findings in two articles in the June 19, 2003, issue of the journal Nature. Page collaborated with colleagues from the Whitehead Institute, Washington University School of Medicine and the Academic Medical Center in Amsterdam.

According to Page, the team's detailed genomic sequence of the human Y chromosome will contribute to a better understanding of male infertility, as well as certain sex-linked genetic disorders in women. He also speculated that their findings could lead to genomic explanations for differences in disease susceptibility between men and women.

Sex chromosomes in animals and humans include the X chromosome and the much smaller Y chromosome. Females have a pair of X chromosomes and males have both an X and Y chromosome.

Although the sequences of several organisms with Y chromosomes—including fruit flies and mice—have been declared “complete,” said Page, those genome sequences did not include the Y chromosome. In the case of the human Y chromosome—and likely those of other animals—standard sequencing techniques have been confounded by the long stretches of nearly identical DNA that lack the landmarks needed to guide the assembly of sequences from smaller segments, said Page.

The Y is unique among chromosomes in that it bears long stretches of mirror-image, or “palindromic,” DNA sequences that nearly thwarted sequencing efforts. “Nobody has seen palindromes of this scale and degree of precision anywhere in the genome,” said Page. “Before we began this project, when asked why it would be so hard to map and sequence the Y chromosome, I used to say it feels like a hall of mirrors. I had no idea how accurate that analogy was, because the Y literally is a hall of mirrors. Trying to sequence the Y chromosome is, indeed, like entering a hall of mirrors, spinning around, and after coming outside, being asked to draw the hall's floor plan. You're disoriented.”

To overcome the disorienting duplications in DNA sequence, Page and his colleagues employed an iterative method to get an overall picture of the Y map. They later refined the technique to do more precise sequencing of the individual segments of the Y chromosome. By sequencing the Y chromosome in segments, they were able to detect minute differences among the near-identical palindromes. They then folded that sequence data back into their mapping to improve it.

In order to minimize complications due to normal genetic variability among males, the sequencing was performed on the Y chromosome of one male, whose identity remains anonymous.

Page said much of the credit for the high-precision sequencing goes to the Washington University Genome Sequencing Center, whose researchers achieved an overall accuracy in the Y-chromosome sequence of one error in 100,000 to 1,000,000 DNA base pairs. This feat is even more impressive when one considers that in order to deduce the approximately 24-million-base-pair sequence of the Y chromosome, the team had to sequence well over 50 million base pairs of DNA, according to Page's estimates.

The final sequence reveals that the Y chromosome is a mosaic of two kinds of genomic sequences: euchromatic sequences that represent active genes, and heterochromatic sequences that are nonfunctional.

The functional euchromatic sequences included three classes, said Page. “These three classes really shout out messages about the evolution of the Y chromosome and sex chromosomes in general, and about the function of the Y chromosome today,” he said.

The three classes are called “X-degenerate,” “X-transposed” and “ampliconic” sequences. X-degenerate sequences are relics from an ancient time when the X and Y chromosomes first evolved from an ordinary, or autosomal, chromosome. Genes within these sequences—which resemble genes on the X chromosome—show evidence of steady decay due to mutation, and many are non-functional. “We can see evidence that, whereas the gene on the X is a functional working copy, in many cases the corresponding gene on the Y is a rotted-out hulk that no longer does any business,” said Page. “And that provides us a glimpse into one aspect of the Y chromosome as a rotted-out X chromosome.”

The X-transposed sequences are genes that were swapped as a group from the X chromosome roughly three to four million years ago, after the ancestors of humans and chimpanzees diverged into separate lines. There are few functional genes in this region, said Page.

Finally, the ampliconic sequences are those that exist within multiple, repeated palindromic segments. “The ampliconic genes are the big surprise,” said Page. “While the X-degenerate genes tend to be expressed throughout the body and in many different tissues and cell types, the genes in the ampliconic sequences are very restricted to the testis in their expression. And to the extent that we've studied them in detail, it looks like they're actually expressed in only in the spermatogenic cells themselves.” Thus, said Page, these genes are likely to play an extremely important role in generating sperm. This role has been confirmed by earlier work showing that mutations in the Y chromosome are the most common known genetic causes of male infertility.

Perhaps the most fundamental insight arising from the sequencing of the Y chromosome, said Page, is how ampliconic genes avoid degradation due to mutation. Unlike the two X chromosomes in females, the Y chromosome does not have a partner with which to swap genes during cell division in order to replace genes that have suffered deleterious mutations, said Page.

“This was the theoretical underpinning for the traditional notion that the Y was a genetic wasteland—the Rodney Dangerfield of the genome,” said Page. “But we believe we have found that many of the genes on the Y, and virtually all the ampliconic genes, occur in pairs. And so, pairs of genes on the Y can swap, not with genes on another chromosome, but with a partner on the corresponding identical palindrome. This Y-Y gene conversion is, I think, the most important finding of our work.” However, he added, that same internal recombination underlies the chromosomal aberrations that lead to male infertility.

To confirm that the ampliconic genes on the Y chromosome palindromes have been recombining over time, Page and his colleagues also performed a comparative analysis of Y chromosomes of humans and chimpanzee sequences in those regions. As reported in the second Nature paper, that comparison, indeed, revealed that such recombination exists in both species.

“The sex chromosomes represent a grand experiment of nature,” added Page. “And in our work, every few years we've caught a glimpse of some unexpected aspect of this experiment. And of all these aspects, this Y-Y gene conversion is one of the wildest.”

Page emphasized that the scientific and clinical implications of the sequencing of the Y chromosome are profound. For example, comparative sequencing of the Y chromosome among various human populations will reveal much about its variation and functions.

More broadly, he said, “While the sequencing of the human genome has been extraordinarily valuable, I think our work illustrates that those hardest parts of the genome that remain to be sequenced might house particular gems worth finding.” And further digging in especially frustrating heterochromatic regions of DNA, which also contain massively duplicated blocks of genetic material, might also yield new genomic insights.

Clinicians are already using data from the Y-chromosome sequencing to understand the genetic origins of male infertility, said Page. That genomic data will aid in understanding Turner syndrome, one of the most common chromosomal disorders in females. The disorder arises from the lack of one sex chromosome, and the absent gene might well be an X-degenerate gene or its counterpart on the X chromosome, said Page.

On a more speculative note, Page said that genes on the Y chromosome might play a role in influencing gender-specific differences in disease susceptibility. Evidence has developed that the Y chromosome plays a role in gonadal sex determination, skeletal growth, germ-cell tumorigenesis and graft rejection, he said.

“We know that there are many diseases for which men or women are at higher risk,” said Page. “It has been conventionally assumed that these differences in disease susceptibility reflect the action of sex hormones, and not the action of the sex chromosomes directly.” But that assumption was set in place when some people thought the Y didn't have any genes on it, said Page.

At one time, researchers believed that during development of females, all genes on one X chromosome were inactivated, leaving only one full complement of genes on the other X chromosome. And since the Y supposedly harbored no genes other than reproductively related ones, men and women were supposedly genetically equivalent.

“But now we know there are many genes on the X that escape inactivation, so they are present in two copies in females and in one copy in males. So, maybe we should rethink the roles of the second sex chromosomes in these often dramatic differences in disease susceptibility between males and females.”

http://www.hhmi.org/news/page5.html
 
wtf ? can we talk about tests on Cannabis NOT tests on humans

what role does the Y chromosome play? Was the question AND I ran a search and posted info on what role the Y chromosome plays i think its funny the pro fem activists throw peas corn and any thing they can find yet you dont say boo but when i post info of the Y chromosome you react lol.

Was the info good yes it was just admitt it.
 
Hi Wally,
Thats a strange way of formulating your question, are you attempting to say the need to feminize female plants will give you a better understanding of what they have to offer through the S1 product? IF this is your position, it would ultimately seem the public is being used by these feminized seed producers as guinea pigs to test out what their elite clones hold.

And I can guarantee you most would not be happy to learn they're being used in such a fashion, and often times paying extra money for doing so. Because most are not buying these seeds to do research, but rather to obtain "elite" lines and by pass the hard work of selection, in lue of maximizing their profits through the lense of the sensimilla product. Not to do research for these so called "breeders", at an extra-ordinary price at that.



With this question, it would indeed seem that you're proposing the real purpose of feminized seed is to do research, rather than offer an "elite" product, which has been for sometime the position many have taken in justifying the feminized seed trend. So this is now an extraordinary jump in defense of the feminized industry, one which ultimately fails to hold up to reason for the above specified reasons. People are not buying these feminized seeds to do research, that is anything but the case in fact.

So if you're indeed proposing the feminized seed industry is now a tool to look further into what these select females have to offer via research, it would seem you're suggesting the feminized products on the market are nothing more than a mass experiment. One which the public is unaware of, and has been marketed to them under false pretences. At an otherwise expensive experiment at that.

I would say, like others previously, the feminized seed trend is meant to capitalize on the publics ignorance and take them to the bank. Filling seed producers and seed sellers pockets, not to do research or offer an elite product. Because as hempy's experiment has previously demonstrated, the S1 plants are a far cry from the original elite mothers, or even F2s made by natural means. The feminized S1's are in fact inferior to the original naturally bred F1s.


With the price most companies are charging for their feminized seed, with this reasoning above one would expect the seed numbers from the product the public buys to be greater than usual. However most are still filling orders with the usual 10-15 seeds per order. If Hempys 18 seeds were not enough to tell the proper story, though more than what these feminized seed producers offer, what exactly is your point wally? That most of these companies should be offering more seed per feminized purchase? Because as it stands, hempy used a greater number of seed than most would normally acquire and was still able to show the detriments of the S1 process. So what will the public find, with an even smaller population to work from?

A whole lot of mediocrity!


JessE, just like hempy you have made the fundamental error in not being able to separate the different forms of feminized seeds, yes you can create them by selfing, but i'm sure a large portion if not the majority of people who are creating hybrids and even pure lines using the process of feminization are doing so with separate females, not the same, or clones of the same female. there's a massive difference between self pollination and cross pollination of two separate females (the latter is as genetically healthy as the equivalent cross done with a male and a female of equal relatedness as the female/female cross). all of you guys simply jump at the word "feminized" and tag it with S1s or self pollination, and then automatically assume on top of that the only reason people/companies would do it is to rip people off, make huge profits, and could care less about research/preservation of cannabis and it's many lines. that's a ludicrous statement and/or thought, yes some and maybe even many companies may be doing this. but you can't claim ALL are. i received SSSDH S1 beta seeds recently FREE from rez himself to test them for him (ie. research/study) and report back our findings, i believe he sent these out to many people not just me of course, this was a limited one time thing only him creating S1s of an "elite" clone of SSSDH, because THE PUBLIC had asked him to do so!!!! i can't say how much he's going to charge for it, i'm sure it depends on results, and demand too. but he's stated it was just a one time thing that people requested so he humoured them. the threads are on ICMag if you want to read up on it.

and you can't just make claims like "The feminized S1's are in fact inferior[/B] to the original naturally bred F1s." without backing it up with any research or publications, i'm sure there are few if any yes, but if that's the case then you are welcome to your view and opinion on the matter but like anyone else can't say for A FACT that this is the case. put it in context? S1 seeds are MORE LIKELY to be inferior with respect to deleterious/mutant alleles being more likely to show up in the S1 offspring as homozygous compared to a randomly selected F1 offspring from some hybrid. however, if you've inbred a line multiple generations you'll face exactly the same problem as you would with S1... as soon as you get past F1s (assuming the lines are completely unrelated) you've effectively the same chance when inbreeding the F1s to make F2s, of getting mutant allele carrying/inferior offspring as you would when selfing a single plant = alleles are able to double up - homozygous - in F2s or the S1 to be expressed.

it's all subjective to situation and circumstance. anyone can make femmed seeds... the process itself is not to blame... it's the people behind it. breeders out there for money whether they're using feminization or not are going to keep producing shit quality seeds in a race to make as much money as they can, the process won't matter, if they're after money they'll chase it any way they can. you have to just be smart as a consumer and stop buying rubbish seeds, if you're worried about femmed seeds, and don't want to pay more for them, there's a simple answer... DON"T BUY THEM! 90% of seeds out there if not more will be produced in regular form as well... you have the RIGHT not to pay more for femmed seeds, but if you decide to you will have less time (wasted - for some anyway) weeding out males. and the process does require more work and time and money (though not as much as they decide to charge for them i agree). but at the end of the day it's up to the consumer, no one has a gun at their heads. if there was no demand, there'd be no supply. if there was no sheep running about, there'd be no wolves there to hunt them down.

you stated "If Hempys 18 seeds were not enough to tell the proper story, though more than what these feminized seed producers offer, what exactly is your point wally?"

are you kidding...?? so 18 seeds from ONE seed company is enough to draw conclusions on the entirety of the feminized seed business?? how scientific? so maybe i'll go do a survey of how many people speak french in antartica and use that data to decide on the amount that speak it in switzerland.... you can only draw conclusions within the limits of your data! hempy's seed run of 18 seeds from one company gives him the right to draw conclusions about that ONE STRAIN from that ONE COMPANY if 18 degrees of freedom is enough in your data analysis.

"hempy used a greater number of seed than most would normally acquire and was still able to show the detriments of the S1 process"

i haven't looked into this "thorough" study of the S1 process, but are you even sure that the strain he acquired seeds for was feminized using this process? how do you know it wasn't cross pollination of 2 separate females? and without more replicates, further comparison of more grows of S1 seeds, of control seeds, of cross pollinated seeds, how the hell can you draw any decent conclusions? you can't be serious?

maybe i'll go buy 18 seeds from a random breeder of whatever process they were made, and then whatever results i get i'll extrapolate to be the best and only example of what every other breeder and strain of cannabis has to offer. get real and get educated. it's about time this fear mongering of feminized seeds stopped coming from those who are the least informed in the process. maybe it's time to shut your mouths and start listening to the people who are ACTUALLY using this process on a daily basis.
 
Owned

you stated "If Hempys 18 seeds were not enough to tell the proper story, though more than what these feminized seed producers offer, what exactly is your point wally?"

are you kidding...?? so 18 seeds from ONE seed company is enough to draw conclusions on the entirety of the feminized seed business?? how scientific? so maybe i'll go do a survey of how many people speak french in antartica and use that data to decide on the amount that speak it in switzerland.... you can only draw conclusions within the limits of your data! hempy's seed run of 18 seeds from one company gives him the right to draw conclusions about that ONE STRAIN from that ONE COMPANY if 18 degrees of freedom is enough in your data analysis.

Darwin,
Well apparently "ONE seed company" was good enough for you not too long ago, so funny how things change once you read something you do not like lol. Hempy actually does what you were looking for, only it works against your pre-conceived notions and all of a sudden your original desire ceases to become relevant? lmao.

darwin.jpg


http://www.icmag.com/ic/showpost.php?p=3685460&postcount=130
 
JessE, just like hempy you have made the fundamental error in not being able to separate the different forms of feminized seeds, yes you can create them by selfing, but i'm sure a large portion if not the majority of people who are creating hybrids and even pure lines using the process of feminization are doing so with separate females, not the same, or clones of the same female. there's a massive difference between self pollination and cross pollination of two separate females (the latter is as genetically healthy as the equivalent cross done with a male and a female of equal relatedness as the female/female cross). all of you guys simply jump at the word "feminized" and tag it with S1s or self pollination, and then automatically assume on top of that the only reason people/companies would do it is to rip people off, make huge profits, and could care less about research/preservation of cannabis and it's many lines. that's a ludicrous statement and/or thought, yes some and maybe even many companies may be doing this. but you can't claim ALL are. i received SSSDH S1 beta seeds recently FREE from rez himself to test them for him (ie. research/study) and report back our findings, i believe he sent these out to many people not just me of course, this was a limited one time thing only him creating S1s of an "elite" clone of SSSDH, because THE PUBLIC had asked him to do so!!!! i can't say how much he's going to charge for it, i'm sure it depends on results, and demand too. but he's stated it was just a one time thing that people requested so he humoured them. the threads are on ICMag if you want to read up on it.

and you can't just make claims like "The feminized S1's are in fact inferior[/B] to the original naturally bred F1s." without backing it up with any research or publications, i'm sure there are few if any yes, but if that's the case then you are welcome to your view and opinion on the matter but like anyone else can't say for A FACT that this is the case. put it in context? S1 seeds are MORE LIKELY to be inferior with respect to deleterious/mutant alleles being more likely to show up in the S1 offspring as homozygous compared to a randomly selected F1 offspring from some hybrid. however, if you've inbred a line multiple generations you'll face exactly the same problem as you would with S1... as soon as you get past F1s (assuming the lines are completely unrelated) you've effectively the same chance when inbreeding the F1s to make F2s, of getting mutant allele carrying/inferior offspring as you would when selfing a single plant = alleles are able to double up - homozygous - in F2s or the S1 to be expressed.

it's all subjective to situation and circumstance. anyone can make femmed seeds... the process itself is not to blame... it's the people behind it. breeders out there for money whether they're using feminization or not are going to keep producing shit quality seeds in a race to make as much money as they can, the process won't matter, if they're after money they'll chase it any way they can. you have to just be smart as a consumer and stop buying rubbish seeds, if you're worried about femmed seeds, and don't want to pay more for them, there's a simple answer... DON"T BUY THEM! 90% of seeds out there if not more will be produced in regular form as well... you have the RIGHT not to pay more for femmed seeds, but if you decide to you will have less time (wasted - for some anyway) weeding out males. and the process does require more work and time and money (though not as much as they decide to charge for them i agree). but at the end of the day it's up to the consumer, no one has a gun at their heads. if there was no demand, there'd be no supply. if there was no sheep running about, there'd be no wolves there to hunt them down.

you stated "If Hempys 18 seeds were not enough to tell the proper story, though more than what these feminized seed producers offer, what exactly is your point wally?"

are you kidding...?? so 18 seeds from ONE seed company is enough to draw conclusions on the entirety of the feminized seed business?? how scientific? so maybe i'll go do a survey of how many people speak french in antartica and use that data to decide on the amount that speak it in switzerland.... you can only draw conclusions within the limits of your data! hempy's seed run of 18 seeds from one company gives him the right to draw conclusions about that ONE STRAIN from that ONE COMPANY if 18 degrees of freedom is enough in your data analysis.

"hempy used a greater number of seed than most would normally acquire and was still able to show the detriments of the S1 process"

i haven't looked into this "thorough" study of the S1 process, but are you even sure that the strain he acquired seeds for was feminized using this process? how do you know it wasn't cross pollination of 2 separate females? and without more replicates, further comparison of more grows of S1 seeds, of control seeds, of cross pollinated seeds, how the hell can you draw any decent conclusions? you can't be serious?

maybe i'll go buy 18 seeds from a random breeder of whatever process they were made, and then whatever results i get i'll extrapolate to be the best and only example of what every other breeder and strain of cannabis has to offer. get real and get educated. it's about time this fear mongering of feminized seeds stopped coming from those who are the least informed in the process. maybe it's time to shut your mouths and start listening to the people who are ACTUALLY using this process on a daily basis.

Excuse me mate who are you trying to kid here ?.

Are you telling me 18 seeds and that all of the 18 showed a massive loss in vigor is not a valed asumtion that vigor is lost are you kidingf me.

What are the diffrent methods used to make fem seeds ? most wont even tell people how they make there fem seeds most are selling s1 seeds useing these so called elite clones to push these things onto the market and you know this if you dont you need to go and research things better.

Explane to me them my friiend and you have the back ground to do this why is it that the f2 made from the same f1 mum the s1 were had the same vigor as her mum made useing her brother from the f1 seeds yet the s1 do not.

Lets cut threw the bull shit of small numbers 18 seeds are more seeds than most fem seed sellers put in a pack they sell to people.
 
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