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  #21  
Old 04-25-2009, 12:10 AM
jaybutta
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Patrick...you see, that's what I'm talking about...common accepted practice is to kill all plants with hermi traits, regardless of the finished product. To see top breeders choosing to work with such plants has confused me for quite some time...no disrespect...I'm just being honest! All my research led me to believe that herms were not worth the trouble, but then I look at strains like Blueberry, Lavender, and Reclining Buddha...and it really makes me wonder!

Amoril...great input...I'm right there walkin that line with you...so you are not alone! Ramble on...I'm listenin and learnin...

L33t...a few things...first, hope you are well...second, I actually agree with everything you say...I agreed with your last post, and I am going to agree again...

I haven't found any information suggesting that Blueberry or any other DJ Short line is prone to herm. In fact, that is precisely my point! DJ Short is very candid about the plants he used to create his lines, and I believe he was able to successfully eliminate the tendency to herm. Soma did the same thing.

"One day, the lights went off when I was in the grow room. They were supposed to be on, and immediately I realized that this might have happened before. If it had been happening regularly, the the plants' cycle had been thrown off. I took a close look at the beautiful buds that I had sniffed for the last 5 weeks. The Big Skunk Korean had become a hermaphrodite and developed many male flowers. Many of them had already opened and their pollen had flown around the room. I inspected the other varieties and saw seeds forming on every single plant."

"The friends with whom I was gardening were very upset as we were all growing for head stash. I bought their share of seeds so it would not be a total loss for them. I then brought all seventeen varieties to Holland where I continued..."

"I started 10 seeds from every strain I had and began making selections...As certain plants finished I got to taste and compare them, I chose the winners and gave them new names according to their flavor and color. Soma Skunk #5...became Somango. Soma Skunk #10...became Lavender...Soma Skunk V was later named Reclining Buddha."

Both breeders write about it in their books, but all other books/breeders say not to breed with such plants. Only in one other book have I found the notion that the herm tendency can actually be bred out of strains...

"In short, selfed plants appear to have natural selective pressures to stay hermaphrodite and to spread the condition to its offspring, however it does not mean that a selfed hermaphrodite population cannot eventually become a dioecious population that does not self." (Green)

When I talk about finished products, I am referring to Blueberry itself, not the bud from the herm plants. Blueberry descends from plants that obviously showed herm tendencies, but Blueberry does not exhibit the same tendency. For me, I see hope in that...

It feels a lot like the old debate over whether males should be kept or discarded. For years I thought it was gospel that males should be killed immediately, until I discovered that, contrary to popular belief, males are not only sacred, but that they can actually be more valuable than most females. Case and point: the Haze A male, the Haze C male, and the Afghani Hawaiian male that Shanti gifted Soma.

I'm interested to know how all this sounds...lemme know...jay

PS...Perhaps you can clear something else up for me, L33t...I read some time ago that Flo can produce multiple harvests when planted outdoors. Do you know anything about this? Thanks...
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  #22  
Old 04-25-2009, 12:49 AM
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Hi all

jaybutta,

I 'm not a breeder myself and I like to be honest about things so I cannot comment much on this matter really , I have no personal experience with breeding out hermi traits , all I can say from my understanding is that I believe that hermi tendencies can be bred out with some work.
By the way I was wondering which is the book that you read where it mentions that the herm tendency can actually be bred out of strains.

Now as for multiple harvests with Flo , many varieties are said to have multiple harvest windows and its true. This is not the case with indicas but it can be said it happens when talking about certain sativas. Many such lines seem to give the grower the oportunity to harvest at different times , once or multiple times during the late stages of flowering.
Basically let me explain how it happens , lets say the plants are at 70 days in flowering and look ripe , seem nearly/ready for the chop . At this point most calyxes are big n fully swollen and pistils are dying back , new flowers seem to have stopped being produced.
..Now some plants after this point start again shooting new pistils and new calyxes grow , new trichs develop on these newly created flowers and you can see the plant is looking as if its continuing to flower now. After few days/weeks the plant may look less ready than it used to seem at 70days.
After a while the plants will look again as if they stopped producing new flowers and will seem ready/about to finish.
This can be seen to be repeated for 3-4 times or more till the plant is truly finished.It depends on strain and also on growing conditions/environment.

So certain long flower sativas usually have many harvest windows and as I said earlier this gives the grower the option to chop whenever he likes (during one of those windows), the later he does the higher the yield.

The reason you want to harvest while the plants are within those harvest windows is cause you want the max resin content on the end product.
If you chop in between of 2 of those harvest windows you actually just get a lower resin content on your flowers (per gram of dried bud) even less than what you had during the first harvest window. Cause at that stage (in between of those harvest windows) you have more 'new' bud but the extra weight is that of new pistils and immature calyxes and less from mature trichomes.During the harvest windows you get a higher ratio of mature resin glands to immature calyxes/pistils. Hope it makes sense.

L33t


Edit:

In my opinion in an ideal world breeders should discard any plant that can go hermi , even under stressful conditions , and keep only 'true' female plants . But thats not easy always as it takes lots of time and is not practical to do if you work with many lines at the same time.
If you notice Shanti says Nev and himself have always killed plants that showed hermi traits under normal growing conditions. What about stressful conditions though? Some breeders like to hard stress plants to find true females and they try to avoid using plants that even only under very stressful conditions show hermi tendencies. One way to do this is to induce irregular photoperiod , ie flipping from 12/12 to 24/0 , then 12/12 etc etc . You can also stress a plant by using pests/bugs or by screwing up feeding , basically any method that will stress a plant can be used for such testing.
I understand it would take much longer time for a breeder to 'stress-test' each and every plant that goes through the breeding rooms before the keepers are finally used in a new line..but imo that is the only way to discard all plants that have any potential to turn to hermis.
So I guess what many breeders are doing is they just toss any plant that under normal growing conditions seems to have hermi tendencies and do this for all plant generations and during breeding projects.
Basically I believe that's what DJ Short is also doing when he is breeding a new line . So even if one of the ancestor plants that was used during the breeding project had showed hermi tendencies these don't seem to be seen in the resulting finished line as he selects carefully while developing a new line. ..and thats why we don't see any hermi tendencies with the F1s he makes available to the public.
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Last edited by L33t; 04-25-2009 at 03:03 AM.
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  #23  
Old 04-25-2009, 11:41 PM
jaybutta
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Hey guys...such a beautiful day...hope everyone is doing well...

L33t...thanks for the info on Flo...hopefully one day I will get to work with her...thusfar my experience with the "blue genes" is limited to Blueberry and Sweet Tooth #3 (SPG x BB)...Blueberry was very difficult to clone, if memory serves, but the bud we called "hippy crack" because we were constantly smoking it and constantly running out of it...fabulous flavors...great daytime smoke...and Sweet Tooth wasn't exactly a "blue", but she was big and tasty...ST#3 smelled/tasted like cherry jollyrancher candy...never had any problems with mold either!

The book I referenced is "The Cannabis Breeder's Bible" by Greg Green...

Chapter 17: Evolutionary Conduit of Cannabis

"Fisher discovered that there was an automatic selection advantage during selfing. A selfed plant will contribute both ovule and the pollen, as a single hermaphrodite parent, to offspring that it will create. In populations that are not selfed the males contributes pollen to separate female plants. The selfed plants however will contain an allele encouraging the hermaphrodite trait (selfing) and Fisher found that this allele has a 3:2 transmission advantage over plants that do not self. This means that selfed plants will usually contain the allele for spreading the selfed trait to further populations unless equilibrium is not maintained and the gene is deleted from the gene pool. In short, selfed plants appear to have natural selective pressures to stay hermaphrodite and to spread the condition to its offspring, however it does not mean that a selfed hermaphrodite population cannot eventually become a dioecious population that does not self."

"(Ronald Alymer) Fisher's papers can be read on-line at www.library.adelaide.edu.au/digitised/fisher/index.html."

But...then...Jorge Cervantes says this in the "Indoor Bible"...

"Sex reversal often results from environmental stress, causing sporadic male flowers to develop on female flower buds. Sexually confused plants due to environmental stress are not natural hermaphrodites. They are stressed plants with intersex tendencies manifested as hermaphrodite or monocious plants. These sexual deviations are not a new variety or hermaphrodite plants. They are the result of stress and unstable breeding stock. Properly grown, these plants would be suitable for selective breeding. Stressed plants with hermaphroditic tendencies are generally less potent and yield less."

"Environmental conditions that provoke sexual deviation include photoperiod fluctuation, low light intensity, ultraviolet light, nutrient toxicities and deficiencies, cold and hot soil and ambient temperatures, abscisic acid, giberillic acid, senesce and mutilation. The world's top cannabis breeders are good growers and prefer to use naturally occurring genetic traits of plants rather that inducing environmental stimulus to achieve desired results. Altering a plant's sex with environmental characteristics could cause the genetic deviation to be picked up by subsequent generations."

According to Green, the trait can be bred out...which is remarkable...if it's true...both Short and Soma seem to support Green's theory...other than that, I have found no other evidence that supports this notion...

According to Cervantes, both Short and Soma were breeding with unstable, less desireable breeding stock...which sounds right on paper...but then we see the "finished products" years later winning Cannabis Cups (Lavender, Blueberry, and Reclining Buddha)...

I found it all very confusing, but great food for thought...I believe quality breeding stock is the key...which is what brought me to MNS in the first place...so I've wondered...

Take care ya'll...talk to ya...jay

PS...I've grown/smoked Lavender as well as Blueberry and I think they're both killer genetics...and one day I hope to get my hands on some Reclining Buddha...if not her, then her younger sibling...Buddha's Sister...
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  #24  
Old 08-08-2009, 04:28 PM
jaybutta
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Hi All...

As a continuation on the topic of genetics, I would now like to discuss male cannabis plants...the true cornerstone of any quality breeder's project...

Relative Potency of Male and Female Plants

The first observations about the differences in potency of the male and female marijuana plants were probably made thousands of years ago. The ancient Indian practice of separating males from females is often cited as evidence of this, but in fact this is done in order to prevent or diminish fertilization of the females. The lesser potency of the males need not have anything to do with the practice. Males are sometimes culled out in fiber-producing countries because they mature earlier and die, and because they are a different height.

Actually, the male plants are the victim of bad press. Males often equal or exceed females in cannabinoid content, especially in the high THC strains. In fact, usually the females are only more potent during the terminal stages of development when the males are dying and the females are in full flower or setting seed. If the males could be prevented from flowering by pruning, flower removal or chemicals, they might continue to develop potency on par with females. Males, however, are much more difficult to manipulate than females. For example, their flowering is not triggered by decreasing day length as the females' generally is, but is relatively fixed and inherent in each strain. Pinching the flowers before they open is difficult because males tend to produce flowers all over the plant, especially when they are fustrated by bothersome human fingers.

Source: Marijuana Chemistry by Michael Starks

The Male Parent

Because the female parent is generally the parent that we are trying to improve on, or recreate, we have a problem with selecting the right male for the job. Male plants do not exhibit female floral traits and so the initial selection of the contributing male is blind.

In order to assess the male plant's breeding qualities you must perform a test crosses and consider the results in the offspring. This is very dependent on the female and how the male's genes combine with those of the female to produce various traits. Testing males is just as important as testing females. By making the right male selection you can enhance your strain in almost every single trait.

The more males you work with, the better your chances are of finding a male donor parent that gives very unique properties to the offspring. Some males are so helpful in increasing yields and potency that they become as important as a good clone mother.

Breeding Talk

Even before the breeding project begins I am spending maybe two or three years growing the selected plant or having others do this for me. The more numbers that we grow the better it is for me to be able to pick out a strain that fits the bill.

When I am happy that I have found a good solid parent that meets my satisfaction it becomes the skeleton for the breeding project. I usually go for a good male over a female plant because I am not interested in the flowers or the high at this point. I just want to see a good solid plant that will become my first donor in a breeding operation.

Source: The Cannabis Breeder's Bible by Greg Green

Fear of male cannabis plants, in part, has led to this "fem revolution" IMO...once people learn how to breed cannabis, males will no longer be taboo...jay
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  #25  
Old 08-11-2009, 03:33 PM
jaybutta
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This male is particular interest to me. You will see why in the passage below...hope you all enjoy the read...

Breeding and Phenotypes

In order to reproduce an already-great female, all you need is a mother to clone from, but in order to breed you need a few good males, too. Actually, one male can be sufficient to pollinate hundreds of females.

In my opinion, the best way to breed is to start out working with quality genetics. Then you can enjoy the experimental nature of the whole thing. Breeding is an exercise in imagination. Start off with something you like and then think about what would make the plant better to grow or smoke.

The female is the plant whose traits you like but want to improve. The male is used to add traits to the female in order to improve a certain characteristic, such as finishing time. In other words, the male is used to "donate" new characteristics to the female.

The Afghani-Hawaiian Crosses: Buddha's Sister

The seeds I'd brought with me were from hermaphroditic female plants, so they were all female. In order to cross them, I needed to bring a male in. My friend Shantibaba shared a choice male with me, an Afghani-Hawaiian.

I took many of my types and crossbred them to this new male. When Reclining Buddha wsa crosed witht he Afghani-Hawaiian male, a mother plant was selected and became what is known as Buddha's Sister. This variety has become one of Amsterdam's favorites.

Since I had crossed with a male plant, the resulting seeds offered more males to choose from. Through time, certain males were selected and crossed back to the females, and through backcrossing, the strains were stabilized. Other varieties of mine that came out of this generation were Afghani Delight, White Willow, Free Tibet, Citralah, Amethyst Bud, Haze Heaven, Big Kahuna, Somanna, and NYC Diesel.

Source: Organic Marijuana Soma Style

I am particularly intrigued by the search for the "right" male...how long it really takes and what it involves...would love to see some "choice" male pics...jay
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  #26  
Old 08-15-2009, 03:53 AM
jaybutta
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Hey everybody...

I'm back with another installment...and yes, there is a point to all of this...eventually...hope you enjoy...

Breeding and Phenotypes

The best way to identify a good male candidate is to experience a female from the same strain. After a suitable strain is identified, the most vigorous male is chosen. Sometimes it can be difficult to get a male plant of the variety you want. It may require obtaining additional seeds of the variety. If you think you might undertake any breeding, this is one reason to preserve seeds or possibly even males from the varieties you are working with.

When different varieties are crossed, the resulting plants are hybrids; that is, they are a genetic mix of the two parents or P1 plants. This cross is the F1 generation. When grown out, the F1's have only subtle variations. Significant variety in this generation probably means that the parents were not completely stabilized strains. The F1 generation is like a big family of siblings. They are similar but none are precisely the same. They will exhibit slightly different combinations of their parents' characteristics, but will still be more alike than they are different.

It is now possible to go in two different directions with the F1 generation. If the desired characteristic is present, the best F1 males are selected and crossed back to the female parent or clones taken from this parent. This is called backcrossing. Usually breeders backcross a number of times to introduce a desireable characteristic to a strain. Eventually, successful backcrossing results in a stable strain.

The other possibility is to cross F1 males and females with each other. Plants grown from seds of thes cross are called the F2 generation. Whereas the F1s were fairly uniform, the F2s are heterogenous. This cross increases diversity. The plants will exhibit a wider range of characteristics from which to select.

Selection is key in winning breeding programs. The hallmark of selection lies in the human ability to choose the best from a cluster of many. Selection is partly talent and partly understanding the plants. It necessitates that the breeder knows what to look for and also knows his or her plants and their needs.

Selecting Winning Plants

Cannabis breeding allows a gardener to come up with an endless number of combinations.

It is usually trickier to select a desireable male than it is to choose a female you want to cross. This is a good reason to select several males and cross each of them with the female variety that you like, and then see which produces the most promising hybrids.

For so many years, I grew only seedless ganja because it smokes the best, but sometimes I have daydreams about what would happen if every ganja smoker grew one seed crop and spread them around...

Source: Organic Marijuana Soma Style

I included the last little bit because I can relate...I have the same dream myself...respect to Shanti and the MNS crew...more to follow shortly...peace...jay
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  #27  
Old 08-15-2009, 06:19 AM
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so, I just read the last few posts. It seems like youre toying with us now, hiding something.

If so, kudos...and out with it!
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  #28  
Old 08-15-2009, 01:01 PM
jaybutta
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Amoril View Post
so, I just read the last few posts. It seems like youre toying with us now, hiding something.

If so, kudos...and out with it!
Hey Amoril...

Sorry it's taking so long to get to the point...had to preface my question with some background information, so that what I ask makes sense to everyone...jay
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  #29  
Old 08-15-2009, 01:57 PM
jaybutta
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Hi All...glad you decided to join me on this journey...

Only one more installment (I promise), followed by the $64,000 question...

Genetic Inheritance: Backcrossing & Stabilizing

Backcrossing refers to the act of crossing a plant with one of its offspring or ancestors. Orginally, two parents (P1) are crossed to produce the first filial generation (f1). These are interbred (f1 x f1) to produce the second filial generation (f2).

An f2 is crossed with a sibling f2 to produce seeds of the f3 generation, and one of those f3 plants is then backcrossed to one of the f2 parents. The backcross can work with either sex; so, for example, the f2 (ancestal) male might be used to pollinate the f3 (progeny) female, or the f2 female may be pollinated with f3 pollen. Because of the difficulty associated with finding a desireable male and the relative ease of finding a desireable female, the ancestral (f2) male is generally cossed to the progeny (f3) female. Backcrossing may range over any number of generations, such as f5 to f2 or even back to f1's and P1's. I avoid early generational backcrossing with later descendants, to avoid loss of stability.

If stability of desired characteristics is the goal, I suggest utilizing a forward filial (sibling) cross, selecting parent stock from siblings that each exhibit desired characteristics. For example, breed a pure Indica by selecting the most Indica-like male and female candidates from the f2 generation. Select the most Indica-like candidates from subsequent generations (f3, f4, etc.). Once the desired characteristics are stabilized, the progeny may be backcrossed to an earlier generation if desired, or outcrossed to another line, to increase hybrid vigor.

Backcrossing Selectively

I avoid backcossing as much as possible. Although interesting characteristics may be stabilized using backcrossing, it leads to inbreeding very quickly.

Beware the lure of backcrossing repeatedly. I have found that all of the expressions of cannabis are obtainable with a combination of one or two backcrosses, and all other crosses forward.

Source: Cultivating Exceptional Cannabis by DJ Short

So, as a prospective future breeder, my concerns are many...here's my question...

Which male (f1, f2, or f3) am I searching for? Which male is the one with the most promise? I'm thinking that I should be looking for my males in the f2 generation, but I also think, with a little time and patience, that there could be a "choice" male in the f3 generation! I wonder if the ideal Black Widow male, for instance, is in the f1, f2, or f3 generation. I wonder if Soma's Afghani Hawaiian was a f1, f2, or f3. I wonder what generation Shanti's HazeC male comes from as well. I'd be interested to know how he knew it was "the one". Or could it be that males come from different generations depending on the strain? I don't know!

Then, there's the question of "How far is too far?". According to DJ Short, there's a fine line between backcrossing and inbreeding. Does that line change depending on the strain, or does it stay the same across the board? Could that line also be dependent upon the species? I'm really hoping someone can shed some light on this for me. Finding the answer to this question, I believe, saves everyone a lot of time and money...feedback needed in the worst way...jay
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